HPTA upregulation during BLAST and CRUISING..

[PitbullTank]

Do you suggest using something like aromisn during entire cycle. I remember at one time he stated people on cycyle should use AI(Arimidex he used) during with hcg x 2 week at least.

I would say at least 12.5mg aromisn daily all the way through hcg x 2-3 week 500iu , then during cruise clomid, little more hcg and maybe now triptorelin 100mcg in about 3 of those cruise a year? Also I feel you need to get lab work to check prolactin and use something for that as well as that plays important role HPT Axis. So maybe something like bromo may need to be added.

yea bro, if you look at the thread i quoted at top of page ull see he recs tha same thing ur saying...

 

[Swifto]

1) Agree and maybe through another mode of action also...many have said.... its not a drug that is fully understood

Its primary MOA is through estrogen antagoinism and there have been other studies done on its effects directly at the pituitary. So I'd say its a fairly understood compound in the way of raising endogenous testosterone.
2)I think thats exactly the point I stated above

3) I cannot, there are no studies on that, and Im not stating its going to raise testosterone on 500mg of E a week....my "theory" is more on "pulse signaling" and "prevention of dormancy" front....thats it....I feel and have for the last 13 years (in my opinion) its very important to send a "signaling" for lack of a better word at 4-8 week intervals than blast for 16 weeks to 24 weeks nonstop and hope on a wing and prayer that you will recover quickly after a half a year on (or continuously on)

How exactly does this "signalling" work. Because, to my knowledge, Clomid or any other SERM cannot override the negative feedback loop and thats what your claiming.

How can Clomid "signal" the HPTA when its shutdown using androgens when we know its primary MOA?

If it doesnt raise endo T when using steroids, whats the point in using it again...?

4) Why not? Im a much bigger fan of "well lets throw everything and the kitchen sink at it" than be picky or choosy when it comes to the HPTA (as I feel one of the main problems in bodybuilders careers are they concentrate too much about "how much am i going to gain when I am on" instead of concentrating on something just as important ..."how am i going to get myself back to square one hormonally as quickly as possible (to the best of my ability)

Because there is no evidence Clomid will override the negative feedback loop and raise GnRH, LH and FSH when shutdown using androgens, thats why its pointless using it for that reason.

Clomid is notorious for side effects, so its a bad choice anyway comparable to other SERMs, even if this phenomenom you speak of works. Which I dont believe it does.

5) Where am i saying that? My statement and only statement was that Ive soured on tamoxifen....as it relates to PCT...Im not comparing it to anything else...I just stated I personally have soured on it.

Tamoxifen is better than Clomid in comparable studies, so why wouldnt Tamoxifen also cause this "signalling" you speak of?

6) Damn you sure read something and then run with it to the tune of your own observations instead of reading the statement as it is typed. I said SERMS MAINTAIN testosterone output? I did? Or you did? Again Im talking about signaling over dormancy. Nobody is going to have a 750ng/dl testosterone level pre cycle...and a 750ng/dl post cycle testosterone (cleared out) shortley thereafter with PCT. As far as Swale you might want to check into that again because he is starting to use clomid with TRT which goes directly against your argument.
**broken link removed**
and he has been thinking about it for awhile now
Bypass the HPTA
HRT with Clomid instead of hcg - Page 2
If the question was "hey Dante what would you rather have someone use during a cycle clomid or HCG?"....my answer would be HCG 100 times out of 100.....Im not championing for clomid here...its brutal on alot of people.

No, because they are the same.

If this "signalling" happens, why can it not be maintained?

You've offered no data to back even this "signalling" claim at all.

One can make assumptions on your theory's. Such as Clomid limiting HPTA inhibition on cycle and other SERMs would be able to repeat this "signalling" using basic logic and looking at other data available.

Suggesting SERMs to prevent "dormancy" on cycle is outdated information and its confirmed by your links dated 2005.

Scally suggests an "off peroid" every 12-16 months and introducing SERMs+HCG during this off time when HRT is stopped. That is not the same as staying on HRT or steroids and introducing SERMs at all.

bolds

 

[dragonfire101]

Here is SWALE's Original PCT Article for Comparison

My PCT Protocol:

Since I've been hanging out here a bit lately, I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my PCT Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.

Also, I'm just running to catch a plane for Las Vegas, attending the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine International Conference. I guess they are supposed to publish an article I wrote on how to administer TRT for men. Wish me luck!

Here it is:

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

 

[PitbullTank]

Here is SWALE's Original PCT Article for Comparison

. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

.

swifto...thanks for the help in the PMs...8 weeks on 4 off lets say, what week would you switch from the long to short esters? Is the test tapered off like the serm is?

 

[Swifto]

swifto...thanks for the help in the PMs...8 weeks on 4 off lets say, what week would you switch from the long to short esters? Is the test tapered off like the serm is?

I'm not an advocate of this 6-8 week on and a few weeks off bullshit.

In this off peroid, TT levels are still high, so SERMs will do jack to signal, or restart the HPTA.

I do suggest changing doses with growth phases and manipulating HCG to suit.

HCG should be used during the on and off peroid but breaks should be taken as estrogen and progesterone levels will climb with time.

I also suggest totally coming off and ramping HCG beforehand, then using SERMs for a number of weeks (4-5) and then going back on if the HPTA is responsive.

 

[PitbullTank]

awesome info swifto...so, ester lenghts dont really play a factor in blast/cruise like ur explaining?

 

[PitbullTank]

bump...

 

[thes]

Good thread...still interested in knowing if sending a signal while on is something that works...I know most of the people on this board probably stay on but what do you do to keep your body as close to 'normal' as possible?

250mcg hcg 2x a week while on?

If you had not been off for a period of time (say a year or more), how would you use hcg? Same protocol as above or more aggressive to get your testes back and then some type of maintenance at that point?

 

[thehazzle]

bumpin an awesome thread

 

[Swifto]

Good thread...still interested in knowing if sending a signal while on is something that works...I know most of the people on this board probably stay on but what do you do to keep your body as close to 'normal' as possible?

250mcg hcg 2x a week while on?

If you had not been off for a period of time (say a year or more), how would you use hcg? Same protocol as above or more aggressive to get your testes back and then some type of maintenance at that point?

You only need to use HCG if you're wanting to directly stimulate the testes. That is determined by BW (GnRH/LH and FSH).

HCG at 250-500ius 2x week or every 4-5 days is what I have done in the past, or taken larger doses every 6-7 weeks to stimulate them.

If you havent used HCG at all in years, then larger initial doses will be needed for stimulation, then maintenence.

HCG should not be used in PCT, but can be used as a pre-PCT to get the testes back online before SERM therapy is started.

 

[warrenpeace]

Swifto: What SERM would you recommend and at what dosage over 4-5 weeks? Tamox or nolva? How long should you wait after the SERM clears before getting bloodwork to determine HPTA recovery?

 

[Swifto]

Swifto: What SERM would you recommend and at what dosage over 4-5 weeks? Tamox or nolva? How long should you wait after the SERM clears before getting bloodwork to determine HPTA recovery?

Tamoxifen IS Nolva (Nolvadex). This is common knowledge and leads me to believe you need to continue your research before taking the plunge.

A combination of Tamox/Tore or Tamox/Clomid with a week 1 double dose frontload.

 

[warrenpeace]

Tamoxifen IS Nolva (Nolvadex). This is common knowledge and leads me to believe you need to continue your research before taking the plunge.

A combination of Tamox/Tore or Tamox/Clomid with a week 1 double dose frontload.

I meant torem. Never been big on PCT drugs and have always recovered by way of bloodwork, but maybe not "optimally". That's debatable though.

 

[premedmonster]

i will be coming off competely after summer after being on more or less for the last 7 months, my question is besides sarms what is good to take that will not cause shut down of natural test so that you can keep gains? is your onlly option hgh/peptides? also would staying on proviron during off time keep test levels shut down?

 

[s39will]

great thread

i did see a reference to triptolin(you know what im talkin about, ignore the spelling) in one of the threads
its a scary drug if not dosed right
but ive read good feedback from members on a low dose one time
both as pct and in cruise
its always interested me, like a magic fix me shot
interested to see if you guys think it has a place in pct and cruise
any vets or anyone whos used this by itself in in combination w other ancillaries, ide like to hear about it
thx

 

[Kaladryn]

Anastrozole has ~50% maximal total estrogen suppression at 1mg/day. Exemestane has ~50% maximal total estrogen suppression at 25mg/day. While letrozole has ~60% at 1mg/day. These are averages based on compiled data from several studies. Similar estrogen suppression can also been seen from only twice a week administration of these AI’s. (43-47)

The information here on letrozole is inaccurate from information I can find in the references presented. Of the references "43-47" I do not see 60% at 1mg/day, I find this:

Results: As assessed after 28 d of treatment, letrozole lowered E2 by 46% in the young men (P = 0.002) and 62% in the elderly men (P < 0.001).

And the dose in question was 2.5mg, not 1mg...

 

[Kaladryn]

bolds

Clomid causes GNRH to pulse infrequently, which is a female pattern. This causes FSH stimulation and NOT LH stimulation. Frequent GNRH pulsation stimulates LH. This is mediated by progesterone.

edit: Infrequent GNRH pulsation does stimulate LH, but moreso FSH.

 

[pecs perfection]

bump again. anybody has had positive experiences with HCG on while cruising? any new compounds might be used along with HCG while cruising?

 

[herculeus]

What I don't understand is this....

I have 4 cycles under my belt.

First two cycles I got blood work done before and after. I used clomid for PCT and used HCG while on cycle. After my first two cycles all my levels came back fine and my test levels were around 800 isn both times.

My third cycle I hired a coach and he doesn't believe in using PCT. He told me not to use hcg or clomid and to just use an AI as my body comes back online to keep estrogen at bay. So, him being my coach, I trusted him and followed it to a T. To my surprise my test levels came back at 1097 I believe which according to labcorp, was damn close to the highest normal value range (It seems as though different blood work labs use different ranges for natural test).

All of my blood work was done at the exact same time which was roughly 3-4 months after last pin. And all my other levels were perfectly fine. Also my cycles consisted of the same dosage and same compounds.

I just finished my 4th cycle and am doing the same thing so we will see how it goes.

Swifto or DC, do you have an explanation for this?

 

[Ranchhand]

What I don't understand is this....

First two cycles I got blood work done before and after. I used clomid for PCT and used HCG while on cycle. After my first two cycles all my levels came back fine and my test levels were around 800 isn both times.

My third cycle I hired a coach and he doesn't believe in using PCT. He told me not to use hcg or clomid and to just use an AI as my body comes back online to keep estrogen at bay. So, him being my coach, I trusted him and followed it to a T. To my surprise my test levels came back at 1097 I believe which according to labcorp, was damn close to the highest normal value range (It seems as though different blood work labs use different ranges for natural test).

All of my blood work was done at the exact same time which was roughly 3-4 months after last pin. And all my other levels were perfectly fine. Also my cycles consisted of the same dosage and same compounds.

I just finished my 4th cycle and am doing the same thing so we will see how it goes.

Very cool! Looking forward to hearing the results from the blood work after this 4th cycle. I've always used HCG/AI/SERM for PCT, but I never get my blood work down afterwards even though I know I should. I've tried clomid more than once but it screws with me to much so I rarely use it.