HRT Dose Cycles - Advice

[MarcusPhoenix]

Hello everyone, I've been training since I was 15 years old, currently I'm 22. In those 7 years I went from a very skinny 135 all the way to a moderately lean 260lbs naturally ( "lean" is not equal to "competition lean").

Anyway, I believe I've trained for long enough to try hormonal assistance. I'm pretty much sure I want to step on a stage and win a pro card. However I'm not in a hurry to get humongous and I'm not willing to sacrifice health and some aspects of life over it, so bear with me. I've been lurking a lot and I know there are a lot of members on this board who like to advise people to take 2 grams of test and 1 gram of every substance known to man + gh and insulin. Or to stay on all the time. For personal reasons, I will not go down that road, call me whatever you want, but I believe this is not the way to do it.

I've done quite a few searches and there were a few threads were certain members said a lot of the biggest guys out there grow from HRT doctor prescribed dosages. 300-400mg of test and maybe one other compound, HGC to ensure proper recovery and a hard PCT. This method sounds better to me, so this is what this thread is about. Muscle growth might not make me "blow up" this way, but I believe it makes a lot more sense to recover after a cycle and keep what I gained than take 2 grams of test and lose everything and screw myself up in the way.

So, if anyone is still reading, I'd appreciate some advice on the following cycle I've planned, especially the part considering HCG protocol and PCT.


Weeks 1 and 2: 300mg Test E 2xweek; 2iu GH EOD
Weeks 3 to 10: 300mg Test E 2xweek; 20mg Tamoxifen ED; 250iu HCG 2xweek; 2iu GH EOD
Weeks 13-14: 40mg Tamoxifen ED
Weeks 15-16: 20 mg Tamoxifen ED


I'm wondering if I should use HCG during the PCT weeks, or if it would leave me more suppressed.

Also, Adex over here is (legal) incredibly expensive, and UGLs have no idea what it is, so, that being the reason for Nolva being used during the cycle. I'm wondering if using Clomid during PCT and leaving Nolva for during the cycle would yield good results.

GH I'd be using is legit pharma grade.

If any advice can be given, I'd be very grateful. This is my "base" cycle, I plan on sticking with it for some time and only stacking one or other compound if the need really arises.

Thank you.

 

[Tom]

everything you want to know is in this thread. read it all....

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/74035-some-thoughts.html

 

[MarcusPhoenix]

everything you want to know is in this thread. read it all....

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/74035-some-thoughts.html

Thank you. I'll read it.

 

[Tom]

Thank you. I'll read it.

please let me know if it was helpful to you. i personally think it is a goldmine of information.

 

[eaglecall]

Those are not HRT doses. Those are way higher. That is actually a heavy first cycle. An HRT dose goes anywhere between 75-150mg per week. The only purpose of HRT is to bring back testosterone levels to average-higher normal range levels. And HRT dose at your age will do nothing. It will only replace what you are already producing naturally, leaving you with the side effects of hypogonadism.

If you are going to be pro, it is a sacrifice you have to make in order to be competitive. For competition levels, there is no sich thing as "just a little bit" Either you go heavy, or stay away. Now if it is for recreational purposes, don't touch the sauce until your late 20's.

 

[MarcusPhoenix]

please let me know if it was helpful to you. i personally think it is a goldmine of information.

Yes sir will do! I don't know how I missed that thread.

Those are not HRT doses. Those are way higher. That is actually a heavy first cycle. An HRT dose goes anywhere between 75-150mg per week. The only purpose of HRT is to bring back testosterone levels to average-higher normal range levels. And HRT dose at your age will do nothing. It will only replace what you are already producing naturally, leaving you with the side effects of hypogonadism.

If you are going to be pro, it is a sacrifice you have to make in order to be competitive. For competition levels, there is no sich thing as "just a little bit" Either you go heavy, or stay away. Now if it is for recreational purposes, don't touch the sauce until your late 20's.

300-400mg is the HRT dose for an aids patient, or slightly above that. It's my first cycle, there's no reason in doing this heavier. If aspire to be a pro, but what if I go and do "heavy" cycles and simply discover I'm not cut out for bodybuilding ? If my muscle bellies are too short or insertion points too weird to allow me to get a pro card ? Id have screwed myself in the pursuit of something I wouldn't be able to achieve. Where would that leave me ? My life is one sacrifice too many I would not be willing to take.

In my own reasoning, if I wanna be a pro, this is what matters:

1) Training
2) Diet
3) Genetics
4) Hormones.

I've been reading posts by DoggCrapp and I believe he had success and knew people who had success doing something similar to what I posted, although I'm completely ignorant of his own protocols ( I said "similar" after all .)

And why would doing 300mg leave me with hypogonadism and going "heavier" wouldn't ? I'm sorry but this makes no sense.

 

[Kaladryn]

Those are not HRT doses. Those are way higher. That is actually a heavy first cycle. An HRT dose goes anywhere between 75-150mg per week. The only purpose of HRT is to bring back testosterone levels to average-higher normal range levels. And HRT dose at your age will do nothing. It will only replace what you are already producing naturally, leaving you with the side effects of hypogonadism.

This is correct about HRT doses. The OP needs to forget what he has learned about the term HRT/TRT and relearn what it actually is. Also, he is incorrect about this forum, most here will actually recommend lower doses not 2g+

That being said, I will give some advice because the OP is basically on the right track even though he's a bit off about a few things.

First it is important to understand this rule: taking test will shut you down, levels will never return to 100%. You may come back to 99%, but it won't be 100%, and each subsequent cycle will permanently shut you down more (yes, even with "perfect" PCT). This is the most critical thing for the first time AAS user to understand. If you are ready to accept that, then the next step is to find a doctor who will monitor you, get baseline bloodwork done for future comparisons, and to make sure everything is currently healthy.

Make sure your diet and and training are optimal. Don't judge yourself, we are terrible at that, and don't listen to your friends. Post some pics and get a real objective, if harsh, opinion about where you are training and diet wise. If you are really serious, I would suggest competing in at least one show naturally. You will learn more about diet and your body this way than any other way, and the lessons learned will help optimize growth. Learning how your body responds to natural contest dieting is a valuable tool also.

Your dosages look like what most internet people suggest, but they are too high. Remember when you first touch AAS, you will be very sensitive, 200mg/week is plenty for the first 4-6 weeks, maybe up to 300mg. If you need more than that on your first one, your diet or training is lacking. You don't need GH, at your age 2iu will be a drop in the bucket, plus you just don't need it yet. Use a VERY low dose AI instead of the nolvadex imo, 6mg ED aromasin would work or .25mg arimidex. If you do stick with the nolvadex, run it at 10mg/day max. The HCG is perfect, the PCT looks good (cut nolvadex dosage in half).

If you really want to get huge, long term, then this is the rule: Take the LEAST amount of gear you need to grow. In the long term, this leads the to the largest size. Someday you will max out the amount of gear you are willing to take, either because of health or because more just won't do anything. The sooner your hit that maximum, the smaller you will be at that dose.

 

[MarcusPhoenix]

This is correct about HRT doses. The OP needs to forget what he has learned about the term HRT/TRT and relearn what it actually is. Also, he is incorrect about this forum, most here will actually recommend lower doses not 2g+

That being said, I will give some advice because the OP is basically on the right track even though he's a bit off about a few things.

First it is important to understand this rule: taking test will shut you down, levels will never return to 100%. You may come back to 99%, but it won't be 100%, and each subsequent cycle will permanently shut you down more (yes, even with "perfect" PCT). This is the most critical thing for the first time AAS user to understand. If you are ready to accept that, then the next step is to find a doctor who will monitor you, get baseline bloodwork done for future comparisons, and to make sure everything is currently healthy.

Make sure your diet and and training are optimal. Don't judge yourself, we are terrible at that, and don't listen to your friends. Post some pics and get a real objective, if harsh, opinion about where you are training and diet wise. If you are really serious, I would suggest competing in at least one show naturally. You will learn more about diet and your body this way than any other way, and the lessons learned will help optimize growth. Learning how your body responds to natural contest dieting is a valuable tool also.

Your dosages look like what most internet people suggest, but they are too high. Remember when you first touch AAS, you will be very sensitive, 200mg/week is plenty for the first 4-6 weeks, maybe up to 300mg. If you need more than that on your first one, your diet or training is lacking. You don't need GH, at your age 2iu will be a drop in the bucket, plus you just don't need it yet. Use a VERY low dose AI instead of the nolvadex imo, 6mg ED aromasin would work or .25mg arimidex. If you do stick with the nolvadex, run it at 10mg/day max. The HCG is perfect, the PCT looks good (cut nolvadex dosage in half).

If you really want to get huge, long term, then this is the rule: Take the LEAST amount of gear you need to grow. In the long term, this leads the to the largest size. Someday you will max out the amount of gear you are willing to take, either because of health or because more just won't do anything. The sooner your hit that maximum, the smaller you will be at that dose.

Alright thank you. I'll have some trouble finding an AI, they are very expensive over here and it's virtually impossible to get it from other sources.

I only added GH because it's something i have easy access to.

 

[MarcusPhoenix]

Oh, I see I wrote it wrong in my original post.

It's not 300mg twice a week. I originally intended to write 150mg 2xweek, then I tried writing 300mg per week and wrote down both. I'm very sorry for the confusion and I'll fix the first post.

EDIT: I can't fix the first post. So I just made this one all in bold. Again, sorry for this.

 

[Kaladryn]

Alright thank you. I'll have some trouble finding an AI, they are very expensive over here and it's virtually impossible to get it from other sources.

I only added GH because it's something i have easy access to.

At that low of a dose, you may not need an AI or SERM, just have the nolv on hand in case you get any tenderness or puffiness... Knowing your IGF-1 level might help determine if you should do the GH or not, that would be part of your baseline bloodwork.

 

[superman18]

Do you have any proof? I have ran cycles and my test levels came back within high range. It is true that you lose T levels as you age but with pct youll be fine. It might also might do with which substances you take and how long.

First it is important to understand this rule: taking test will shut you down, levels will never return to 100%. You may come back to 99%, but it won't be 100%, and each subsequent cycle will permanently shut you down more (yes, even with "perfect" PCT).

 

[michal]

Hi,
first of all WOW that is solid base if you are not lardy ass
I would do normal cycle :
1-10 weeks : Test 400-500mg/w ( split dose on 2 shots )
3-11 weeks : 2x250iu HCG/w
13-16 weeks: 20mg Tamox/ED + all extra supps which you are use to ( creatine.NO etc. whatever do you use if any )


You don't need Tamoxifen at such a high dose (20mg/ED) during your cycle... have it on hand and use only if you will feel your nipples. AI would be better use but you know that right.. ?

GH? Well, better would be use Peptides ( GHRP, CJC ) they work with natural pulses and they WORK WELL ! ! ! You can find all info about peptides here ( http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f.../37381-dats-cjc-1295-ghrp-6-basic-guides.html ) ... ( If you have big Cash you can run 2ius GH EOD + peps to have even better results )

Do COMPLETE BLOOD TEST before cycle ( include IGF levels ect. ) to see where your NATURAL HORMONE LEVELS are.

Do COMPLETE blood test in the middle of cycle to see if you are healthy ( livers, cholesterol, hematocrit ect. ).

And do Complete blood test after cycle to see what healthy issue you have to take care of before starting next cycle.

Do Complete blood test 5 weeks after PCT to see if you are recover well.

In so young age i would do max 2 cycles in 1 year, no more and everytime try to gain Lean muscle mass and don't be a PIG ( it is unhealthy way ).

Also Drop bf , diet down on lets say 8-12% bf before you start cycle, it helps keep you more healthy ( and less sides during cycle ).

About nutrition and proper training i don't have to talk, because with such a base you obviously know what works for you

Hope it helps, bye Michal.

 

[eaglecall]

300-400mg is the HRT dose for an aids patient, or slightly above that. It's my first cycle, there's no reason in doing this heavier. If aspire to be a pro, but what if I go and do "heavy" cycles and simply discover I'm not cut out for bodybuilding ? If my muscle bellies are too short or insertion points too weird to allow me to get a pro card ? Id have screwed myself in the pursuit of something I wouldn't be able to achieve. Where would that leave me ? My life is one sacrifice too many I would not be willing to take.

In my own reasoning, if I wanna be a pro, this is what matters:

1) Training
2) Diet
3) Genetics
4) Hormones.

I've been reading posts by DoggCrapp and I believe he had success and knew people who had success doing something similar to what I posted, although I'm completely ignorant of his own protocols ( I said "similar" after all .)

And why would doing 300mg leave me with hypogonadism and going "heavier" wouldn't ? I'm sorry but this makes no sense.

Everybody here is giving you great advises. Basically you are misinformed. I repeat, NO. Those are not HRT doses. It might be use for an aids patient immune system, but that has nothing to do with HRT

Even under your correction, 150mg twice a week, IS NOT HRT. That would be double of the highest prescribed HRT dose.

Then what you list "under your reasoning", you are correct. Add Rest or sleep, and ALL OF THE ABOVE count. At a professional level, competitors will follow all of them in order to succeed.

Unfortunately, during the process you will discover if you are suitable to be a champion. That's a risk you have to decide if you take it or not.

And the reason why I talked about hypogonadism, is because Test is Test. Run it at 500mg a week or a gram a week, it will shut you down. Over time, after cycle, there is no such thing as recovering 100% and be 29 years old again. After a cycle, you will be able to recover through proper PCT, but your pituitary gland will never work at the same optimal level as before. It gets damaged.

 

[Trainwreck80]

Edit: double post

 

[Trainwreck80]

I respectfully disagree with you regarding the pituitary getting damaged. It's repeated so much on bodybuilding forums that gear will screw up your natural test levels. I've been on real doctor prescribed HRT for years. I've done tons of research, and not the google kind...the medical journal kind. I've also talked to many doctors and not one of them would agree with you. If a person goes off of test they will recover unless there is something else wrong with them. A 60 year old might not recover as fast as a 20 year old but they also wouldn't heal as fast, etc.

I didn't believe this until I went to a new endo one time and she wanted to run a shit ton of tests on me off my test cyp. So she told me to come back for blood work three weeks after my last injection of test. I asked if this was too soon and she laughed and said you're natural levels will be back in three weeks no problem. I did what she said, got the blood test done 3 weeks after my last injection, and after 2-3 years of being on test at the time my levels were right back where they were before I started HRT.

All my doctors have always said that a person will recover no problem. Same with the thyroid. You can read about people being on thyroid meds for 20 years and stopping them. Their thyroid levels go right back to where they were before they started the medication.

I'm not saying there aren't people who won't have problems but I think they are rare and according to my doctors there is something else wrong with them that is inhibiting their recovery.

 

[Kaladryn]

I didn't believe this until I went to a new endo one time and she wanted to run a shit ton of tests on me off my test cyp. So she told me to come back for blood work three weeks after my last injection of test. I asked if this was too soon and she laughed and said you're natural levels will be back in three weeks no problem. I did what she said, got the blood test done 3 weeks after my last injection, and after 2-3 years of being on test at the time my levels were right back where they were before I started HRT.

3 weeks after your last injection of test cyp you would still have quite a bit of it in your system. So if what you are saying is accurate, that endo is pretty dumb, which isn't as uncommon as you might think in the medical world.

Same with the thyroid. You can read about people being on thyroid meds for 20 years and stopping them. Their thyroid levels go right back to where they were before they started the medication.

Thyroid is different and seems to be extremely resilient in most people. The reason test is different is because of the aromatase factor. Taking exo test causes increased aromatase expression, increasing E2 and lowering test. There is no feedback for aromatase, probably because testosterone going way up is a one time event (puberty), estradiol then comes in towards the end (puffy nipples, acne) and turns it back down. There is no reason for feedback in the other direction, until someone started stabbing themselves with a needle full of synthetic. Thyroid on the other hand has a reason to go up and down (adjusting metabolism to environmental factors).

Although I have a biochem background, most of this comes from a very smart research endo I know.

 

[eaglecall]

I respectfully disagree with you regarding the pituitary getting damaged. It's repeated so much on bodybuilding forums that gear will screw up your natural test levels. I've been on real doctor prescribed HRT for years. I've done tons of research, and not the google kind...the medical journal kind. I've also talked to many doctors and not one of them would agree with you. If a person goes off of test they will recover unless there is something else wrong with them. A 60 year old might not recover as fast as a 20 year old but they also wouldn't heal as fast, etc.

I didn't believe this until I went to a new endo one time and she wanted to run a shit ton of tests on me off my test cyp. So she told me to come back for blood work three weeks after my last injection of test. I asked if this was too soon and she laughed and said you're natural levels will be back in three weeks no problem. I did what she said, got the blood test done 3 weeks after my last injection, and after 2-3 years of being on test at the time my levels were right back where they were before I started HRT.

All my doctors have always said that a person will recover no problem. Same with the thyroid. You can read about people being on thyroid meds for 20 years and stopping them. Their thyroid levels go right back to where they were before they started the medication.

I'm not saying there aren't people who won't have problems but I think they are rare and according to my doctors there is something else wrong with them that is inhibiting their recovery.

I completely respect your experience, but this would be the first time in my life that I hear from somebody completely recovering his testosterone levels without pct 3 weeks after last injection. I have heard of people not doing pct, and it takes 6 months to a year to get the body compensate and slowly recover. But 3 weeks? Never heard of it. You are blessed.

 

[MarcusPhoenix]

Thanks everyone for all the info!

I'll get a bloodwork done before I consider doing the cycle. I'll probably consider letting the GH out of my cycles for some time, so that I can have "a trick in my sleeve" to add to future cycles without upping the dosages ( like said on the some thoughts thread ). What I had in mind, for now, is doing 1 cycle a year or so.

Question: Is there any books or places I can use to educate myself on this subject ? This site already contains lots of info, but knowledge is never too much. I'm a Biochem student but I'm still learning the basic stuff.

Thanks everyone.

 

[Trainwreck80]

3 weeks after your last injection of test cyp you would still have quite a bit of it in your system. So if what you are saying is accurate, that endo is pretty dumb, which isn't as uncommon as you might think in the medical world.

Not at all true. Maybe if one was taking a very large dose there would be a significant amount but not on 100mg or 120mg dose. I even had the levels checked by my primary doc a few weeks after those labs and it was the same more or less. Increased a hair but not significantly. It certainly didn't decrease like it would if there were still exo test in my body for the first labs.

 

[warrior504th]

Kaladryn, you realize that the term half life is inaccurate and should be stated half of active life in the case of estered hormones in oil? And once in the bloodstream, it absolutely will not last any significant amount of time... meaning less than 48h iirc. This is the most common misconception out there. The amount of hormone in depot has nothing to do with the depot life. Only the ester which is based on an active life of around 2 weeks in this circumstance....

Please don't shoot the messenger. I know last time I said this you got upset, but we can have a civil discussion.