I may be asking the most important question of all time.

[The Real Mako]

In our quest to get bigger, stronger, faster and leaner we have asked a million questions about:

what to use.
How much to use.
How long to use it.
How to cycle
When to stop
When to start
What to eat
What to avoid
What supplements are best
ect.... you get the picture

The one question i have never seen on here or any board is this... ...

UNDER THE BEST OF CIRCUMSTANCES HOW MUCH LEAN MUSCLE MASS CAN YOUR BODY CREATE IN A 30 DAY PERIOD ON JUICE AND CLEAN..

we ask all these questions but i never saw anyone say in "reality" what can your body do? my best guess is a natural bodybuilder can gain 1-2lbs a month for 16-20 weeks (12-15lbs max)1 time a year if they are moderate to advanced AT BEST... a bodybuilder on gear 3-5lbs a month for no more then 12-16 weeks(15-20lbs max) in any given year at a moderate to advanced level...

That is why i am strong believer is doing 1 16 week cycle a year for pure lean muscle mass... fine tune with other items but i think 16 weeks 1 time a year is plenty..thoughts?

 

[The Real Mako]

I kow some will argue you can more or less but i think and feel on average your body can only work so hard so log so fast till it slows down or shuts down... but on average a natural guys can gain 10-12lbs a year years after year and a juiced guys 12-15 year after year..

If you average total mass gained by someone 40 years old who has been lifting 25 years you wil come out with a average of 5-7lbs a year....example

A 40 year old who weights 210 lbs at 12% started out at age 15 110lbs 9% without getting mathamatical you could say he gained about 5lbs a year for 20 years... maybe 20lbs his first year but in the end with the gain and lost of muscle it averaged out...

Are well better off gaining that 5-7lbs a year slowly or should we try to gain that 100 lbs in 5 years and try to keep it the next 15 years??

 

[Armageddon]

In our quest to get bigger, stronger, faster and leaner we have asked a million questions about:

what to use.
How much to use.
How long to use it.
How to cycle
When to stop
When to start
What to eat
What to avoid
What supplements are best
ect.... you get the picture

The one question i have never seen on here or any board is this... ...

UNDER THE BEST OF CIRCUMSTANCES HOW MUCH LEAN MUSCLE MASS CAN YOUR BODY CREATE IN A 30 DAY PERIOD ON JUICE AND CLEAN..

we ask all these questions but i never saw anyone say in "reality" what can your body do? my best guess is a natural bodybuilder can gain 1-2lbs a month for 16-20 weeks 1 time a year if they are moderate to advanced AT BEST... a bodybuilder on gear 3-5lbs a month for no more then 12-16 weeks in any given year at a moderate to advanced level...

That is why i am strong believer is doing 1 16 week cycle a year for pure lean muscle mass... fine tune with other items but i think 16 weeks 1 time a year is plenty..thoughts?

The reason most haven't tried to answer that question is because they can't. It can't be answered because no one knows how you or someone else will react to what's going in your body. Plus no person's training is generally the same and all the other variables....blah blah
I think the 1 time a year thing is way over rated. I think when I first read one of Big A's post, is when I really thought about it. Longer is better, but at a low dose. You hop on and then off again after 16 weeks you basically your going to put your body into shock and when you come off you have to fight like hell and do this and that, along with hoping that you'll retain most of what you've gained. I think a DC style approach works the best. Short acting for blast then long acting for cruise, and then when your thinking about coming off stay on a few more weeks at a low dose like HRT. This gives your body a chance to get comfortable at the new weight and size, plus gives it more time to get as close to homeostasis as it possible can. Thus more retention and the gains. Hope I wrote this in a maner that made sense, sounded better in my head I think. LOL

 

[The Real Mako]

The reason most haven't tried to answer that question is because they can't. It can't be answered because no one knows how you or someone else will react to what's going in your body. Plus no person's training is generally the same and all the other variables....blah blah
I think the 1 time a year thing is way over rated. I think when I first read one of Big A's post, is when I really thought about it. Longer is better, but at a low dose. You hop on and then off again after 16 weeks you basically your going to put your body into shock and when you come off you have to fight like hell and do this and that, along with hoping that you'll retain most of what you've gained. I think a DC style approach works the best. Short acting for blast then long acting for cruise, and then when your thinking about coming off stay on a few more weeks at a low dose like HRT. This gives your body a chance to get comfortable at the new weight and size, plus gives it more time to get as close to homeostasis as it possible can. Thus more retention and the gains. Hope I wrote this in a maner that made sense, sounded better in my head I think. LOL

Hi mate- alot of things make sense in my head as well but do not coem out that way on paper... If you could give me an example of what your talking about woudl play out over a year...it looks sound and makes sense in my head but curious to knwo what it looks like..

 

[bigfatandugly]

I kow some will argue you can more or less but i think and feel on average your body can only work so hard so log so fast till it slows down or shuts down... but on average a natural guys can gain 10-12lbs a year years after year and a juiced guys 12-15 year after year..

If you average total mass gained by someone 40 years old who has been lifting 25 years you wil come out with a average of 5-7lbs a year....example

A 40 year old who weights 210 lbs at 12% started out at age 15 110lbs 9% without getting mathamatical you could say he gained about 5lbs a year for 20 years... maybe 20lbs his first year but in the end with the gain and lost of muscle it averaged out...

Are well better off gaining that 5-7lbs a year slowly or should we try to gain that 100 lbs in 5 years and try to keep it the next 15 years??

there is no real answer to your question, as the examples you use to illustrate your point do not work in the real world.

i do not think a natural bodybuiler can gain 10 pounds a year, ' year after year'. the natural bodybuiler will hit a plateau where his genetics will prevent him from holding any more muscle.

as for a natty gaining 10 pounds a year year after year, if you have a 175 pound 6'2 natty who has been training and doing everything he needs to do to make lean muscle gains for 15 years, your post goes to suggest he will weigh 325 after 10 years of training clean.

see where im going here?

even an advanced athelete (read: genetically blessed) using any given combination of compounds for indeterminate amounts of time would be fortunate to make the gains you are suggesting.

if you can gain 100 pounds in 5 years i say good for you and wish you all the best.

but i dont think its going to happen.

not being a dick bro, i just dont want to see you undertake such a goal only to end up dissappointed and frustrated.

maximize all your efforts to grow outside the gym, and train your ass off. you'll gain as much as you possibly can doing that. dont chase numbers that are improbable at best.


BFU

 

[The Real Mako]

No offense taken BFU since you have stated what i am saying... you can only get so big
so fast for so long plateau hits everyone, gentics is the real stop sign. Everyone can only get so big so fast no matter what you do but we all have a final weight, i think... weather we get there in 5 years or 25 years... I agree with all you have said and like i stated you followed up what i am trying to say... good points and well said, better then me i think

there is no real answer to your question, as the examples you use to illustrate your point do not work in the real world.

i do not think a natural bodybuiler can gain 10 pounds a year, ' year after year'. the natural bodybuiler will hit a plateau where his genetics will prevent him from holding any more muscle.

as for a natty gaining 10 pounds a year year after year, if you have a 175 pound 6'2 natty who has been training and doing everything he needs to do to make lean muscle gains for 15 years, your post goes to suggest he will weigh 325 after 10 years of training clean.

see where im going here?

even an advanced athelete (read: genetically blessed) using any given combination of compounds for indeterminate amounts of time would be fortunate to make the gains you are suggesting.

if you can gain 100 pounds in 5 years i say good for you and wish you all the best.

but i dont think its going to happen.

not being a dick bro, i just dont want to see you undertake such a goal only to end up dissappointed and frustrated.

maximize all your efforts to grow outside the gym, and train your ass off. you'll gain as much as you possibly can doing that. dont chase numbers that are improbable at best.


BFU

 

[auto26]

Diminishing returns both natural and on. The closer you get to your limit – the harder it is to gain. It takes a LOT more effort and time to put on that last 5 lbs than to put on the first 25lbs.

Take two guys, both with good genetics and good diets. One guy has been lifting with gear for 20 years - MAYBE gains 3-10 lbs lbm year. The other guy lifting for the first time (natural) maybe gains 15-25 lbs lbm the first year. So to answer your question - it depends on where you are in your bodybuilding "life"

That said - there is no doubt that drugs will help you reach your (natural) limit faster and is the only way to develop past it.

 

[K1]

The reason most haven't tried to answer that question is because they can't. It can't be answered because no one knows how you or someone else will react to what's going in your body. Plus no person's training is generally the same and all the other variables....blah blah
I think the 1 time a year thing is way over rated. I think when I first read one of Big A's post, is when I really thought about it. Longer is better, but at a low dose. You hop on and then off again after 16 weeks you basically your going to put your body into shock and when you come off you have to fight like hell and do this and that, along with hoping that you'll retain most of what you've gained. I think a DC style approach works the best. Short acting for blast then long acting for cruise, and then when your thinking about coming off stay on a few more weeks at a low dose like HRT. This gives your body a chance to get comfortable at the new weight and size, plus gives it more time to get as close to homeostasis as it possible can. Thus more retention and the gains. Hope I wrote this in a maner that made sense, sounded better in my head I think. LOL

Bump this, good response.........

 

[The Real Mako]

Bumping my own post i like what i am reading and seeing

 

[flexmaster]

In our quest to get bigger, stronger, faster and leaner we have asked a million questions about:

what to use.
How much to use.
How long to use it.
How to cycle
When to stop
When to start
What to eat
What to avoid
What supplements are best
ect.... you get the picture

The one question i have never seen on here or any board is this... ...

UNDER THE BEST OF CIRCUMSTANCES HOW MUCH LEAN MUSCLE MASS CAN YOUR BODY CREATE IN A 30 DAY PERIOD ON JUICE AND CLEAN..

we ask all these questions but i never saw anyone say in "reality" what can your body do? my best guess is a natural bodybuilder can gain 1-2lbs a month for 16-20 weeks (12-15lbs max)1 time a year if they are moderate to advanced AT BEST... a bodybuilder on gear 3-5lbs a month for no more then 12-16 weeks(15-20lbs max) in any given year at a moderate to advanced level...

That is why i am strong believer is doing 1 16 week cycle a year for pure lean muscle mass... fine tune with other items but i think 16 weeks 1 time a year is plenty..thoughts?

in a 30 day period, there is no way in hell the avergae guy is going to naturally put on 1-2lbs of lbm. think about how big 2lbs of raw steak is, there is no one i know or have ever seen put on that much MUSCLE (not water, fat, muscle) in 30 days. guy using aas are trying to come in 5-10lbs heavier next year for contests...even if a guy puts on 10lbs lbm thats less than 1lb/month...while using aas. i think it all happens much much slower than you are thinking.

 

[The Real Mako]

in a 30 day period, there is no way in hell the avergae guy is going to naturally put on 1-2lbs of lbm. think about how big 2lbs of raw steak is, there is no one i know or have ever seen put on that much MUSCLE (not water, fat, muscle) in 30 days. guy using aas are trying to come in 5-10lbs heavier next year for contests...even if a guy puts on 10lbs lbm thats less than 1lb/month...while using aas. i think it all happens much much slower than you are thinking.

In the beginning we all make mad gains taht we think will last forever but as we spend more time eating, training, and growing we see the initial gains slow dramatically... IN THE BEGINNING we see fast growth but like i say after we have been exposed to the game a while we see those resukts the first year stop and will be lucky to see 5lbs a year after that.. like i said in future post a average of 5lbs a year is what we see

 

[Nssca]

Our bodies are geared or programed for one purpose...survival. gaining large amounts of muscle is not a natural situation and not a important factor in survival. Our genes are set up as if we still lived on the African savannas 100,000 years ago. The first cycle is a dramatic increase in testosterone and your body response like it will never do again. Some people can gain as much as 20-25 lbs of LBM after that first cycle. That will never happen again, no matter how much test you take or protein you eat. Why? Most factors have been researched and discussed but, the point is, your body will literally fight to maintain its original programming form 100,000 years ago. Some Races seem to put on muscle easier than others. Blacks and Italians seem to be two of the ones I've seen to put on loads with just above average effort. Other races such as Asians have to work their ass of for minimal gains...Anglo-Saxons are some where in the middle. Bottom line every ones genes have the final say so... no matter what you do to change that.

 

[flexmaster]

In the beginning we all make mad gains taht we think will last forever but as we spend more time eating, training, and growing we see the initial gains slow dramatically... IN THE BEGINNING we see fast growth but like i say after we have been exposed to the game a while we see those resukts the first year stop and will be lucky to see 5lbs a year after that.. like i said in future post a average of 5lbs a year is what we see

well nothing was said about "in the beginning". i dont think it matters all that much to worry or think about this because everyone is so different. this topic just kind of goes aroundin circles.

 

[littlemack]

One other thing to consider, is someone who has had a long layoff will gain faster than everyone else. This happened to me. Though I eventually hit a slowing plateu. I had about a 2 year break and started back up again very seriously, with proper diet, and training, and added 16lbs of lean mass in 8 weeks and 80lbs to bench and 100lbs to squats. I did this as a natural. My body also seemed to like higher amounts of protein than what I'd used previously.
At the end of 8 weeks I blew out my chest on bench and had to have surgery.

Yes, I agree. There is no way to tell b/c we all have different genetics. I'm surprised, though, that some of the coaches and trainers haven't responded with their findings. They should be masters in this game with this. If I had everyone on the same diets, same training, same supps, etc., I would be monitoring everyone's results and come up with a range. I guess its hard to find dedicated test subjects who are faithful to the plans.

 

[Tman2002]

even with juice

5-10 pounds per year would be all I can do. But I'm talking about actual lean muscle tissue. The question is really unaswerable. Given the varibles, the main one being water wich is what the muscle mainly consist of. You can gain lose water so quick and easily. A gain of a pound or even 5 is possible if the person is even lightly dehydrated.

 

[gettnlarge01]

Everyone is different and the longer we do it the harder it is to gain lbm.What someone gains in 30days on a first cycle will be great compared to what the same person will gain in 30days on his 10th cycle.All good things will come to an end including muscle gains.

 

[Big Danny]

I don't know exactly if this statistic is right, it is possible that both will gain the above mentioned mass. But one thing I am sure, the 40 yo natural will have a huge problem gaining all this weight without gaining some unwanted body fat, at least he is extraordinary genetically gifted. His decreasing level of test.(and many other hormons) will not help him either.
What I'm trying to say is that age play a crucial role for both natural and geared

 

[Kahn]

At the end of 8 weeks I blew out my chest on bench and had to have surgery. QUOTE]

How'd you do that? Overtraining?