Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
M4B Store Banner
intex
Riptropin Store banner
Generation X Bodybuilding Forum
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Mysupps Store Banner
IP Gear Store Banner
PM-Ace-Labs
Ganabol Store Banner
Spend $100 and get bonus needles free at sterile syringes
Professional Muscle Store open now
sunrise2
PHARMAHGH1
kinglab
ganabol2
Professional Muscle Store open now
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
azteca
granabolic1
napsgear-210x65
esquel
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
ashp210
UGFREAK-banner-PM
1-SWEDISH-PEPTIDE-CO
YMSApril21065
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
advertise1
tjk
advertise1
advertise1
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store

I need clarification/advice on PCT

jtcraig3

Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
244
I know this belongs in the beginner's forum, but I've posted questions about this subject in that forum without much response.

I guess I'm trying to figure out when different PCT products are necessary.

For example: If someone is running a straight test "cycle" for 3 or 4 months, I'm assuming HCG AND Adex would be sufficient. Would you run HCG during (how often and how much?), and how long after coming off (how often, and how much?)

Also, when should aromatase inhibitors be used vs. anti-estrogens?

I know these are very general questions, and can only be answered exactly in relation to the exact AAS being used, but if anyone could point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
My first cycle was Test E 500mg for 12 weeks and Dbol 50mg first and last four weeks. I ran HCG when my balls started to atrophy around week 4 @ 250iu's three times a week. Two weeks after my cycle ended I ran 50mg clomid for four weeks and Nolva for four weeks 40,40,20,20mg. I only lost five lbs of my gains and my sex drive was sky high the entire time. I don't run HCG during my PCT and I had my second child after this cycle so its safe to say my balls were working just fine. They also returned to normal size after I introduced HCG with my cycle.
 
Last edited:
My first cycle was Test E 500mg for 12 weeks and Dbol 50mg first and last four weeks. I ran HCG when my balls started to atrophy around week 4 @ 250iu's three times a week. Two weeks after my cycle ended I ran 5g clomid for four weeks and Nolva for four weeks 40,40,20,20mg. I only lost five lbs of my gains and my sex drive was sky high the entire time. I don't run HCG during my PCT and I had my second child after this cycle so its safe to say my balls were working just fine. They also returned to normal size after I introduced HCG with my cycle.

Is it safe to assume you meant 50mg of Clomid? ;)
 
I'm still not a firm believer in PCT. I'm sure I'll get criticized for saying this but in my experience I've found that tapering off is just as effective.
 
I'm still not a firm believer in PCT. I'm sure I'll get criticized for saying this but in my experience I've found that tapering off is just as effective.

You won't get criticised by me.Never noticed a bit of difference running pct or not. I never even bothered tapering. Id just stop and let body bounce back. These days im old so just cruise and be done with it:)

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk 2
 
Keeping your balls awake during cycle is actually smart if you plan on coming off. 250mcg HCG twice a week is plenty.

I don't believe in PCT either.
 
Keeping your balls awake during cycle is actually smart if you plan on coming off. 250mcg HCG twice a week is plenty.

I don't believe in PCT either.

What are your thoughts on using Clomid on-cycle for that purpose?
 
A lot of people believe that PCT was invented by the Internet. Before I got smart and did blood work, I did pct for peace of mind.
 
I tried Clomid once and the sides weren't pretty, so I discontinued.

Word is that it works fine for this purpose.

What was your dose? 50mg was fine for me and I didn't notice any negative sides. The only time I see guys getting negative results is when they go 100mg/day and above which I think is over kill.
 
I tried Clomid once and the sides weren't pretty, so I discontinued.

Word is that it works fine for this purpose.

What dose did you run it at?

I've read that a couple times too in the past, but it's not discussed often here that I've seen.

Thanks!
 
What's the lower dose that people take? That's what I took. I'm a low dose guy.

Got moody and vision problems. Seeing glares at night and trouble with focus.
 
What's the lower dose that people take? That's what I took. I'm a low dose guy.

Got moody and vision problems. Seeing glares at night and trouble with focus.

50mg is the most common dose I've seen.
 
I know this belongs in the beginner's forum, but I've posted questions about this subject in that forum without much response.

I guess I'm trying to figure out when different PCT products are necessary.

For example: If someone is running a straight test "cycle" for 3 or 4 months, I'm assuming HCG AND Adex would be sufficient. Would you run HCG during (how often and how much?), and how long after coming off (how often, and how much?)

Also, when should aromatase inhibitors be used vs. anti-estrogens?

I know these are very general questions, and can only be answered exactly in relation to the exact AAS being used, but if anyone could point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

None of wut u are proposing is used in pct.

Hcg and adex are used during cycle.

Pct is strictly clomid and nolva starting 2 weeks after last test cyp/enan pin. U can start 3 days after last pin if u are using test prop. U didn't specify so I included both.

Dunno if u used hcg during cycle. Some people blast hcg at high dosage after test pin for a week then wait a week and start pct. Idk much about that tho but have heard it.

Clomid 100/100/50/50
Nolva 40/40/20/20

That's 100mg/day clomid for the first week and 2nd week and 50mg/day clomid for 3rd and 4th

Synthetek Industries – Innovative Bodybuilding Products: Syntherol SEO | Human Kyno | L-Carnitine | Liver Protectants | Appetite Stimulators | Vasodilators - www.synthetek.com
 
Last edited:
As for the comments that PCT makes no difference in terms of recovery--that's ridiculous. This isn't something we need to guess about, guys--it is a known fact, which has not only been proven clinically, but by 1,000's of steroid users world-wide.

If maintaining natural testosterone production is a priority, which it should be for the individual that intends on "cycling" his gear (a good idea for most), then preventatve action should be taken in the form of HCG.

Although recommendations for HCG vary in regards to both onset of administration, frequency of administration, and dosage, I believe that a dosing schedule of 350-400 IU on Mon/Wed/Fri, beginning the first week of the cycle until 2 days before the last steroid clears the system, is superior to the more traditionally recommended 250 IU 2X weekly or 500 IU 2X weekly protocols.

Previously, concerns of desensitization prevented guys from dosing this druig at dosages above 250 IU 2X weekly, but we now know these concerns were heavily over-exaggerated. While the 500 IU 2 X weekly program was certainly an improvment over the lower dosed 250 IU, the dosing frequency was not ideal. With a half-life of roughly 33 hours, HCG should be injected roughly every 2nd day in order to maintain blood levels, with every 3rd day being the maximum. Otherwise, the drug's ability to maintain testosterone production will be limited to only a portion of the week. While this may be sufficient to ward off significant atrophy, why play tug-o-war with your hormonal production all cycle long when there really isn't any need?

Research has also shown that bioavailability is significantly increased with I.M. administration compared to sub-q. Still, before running off and injecting your HCG intramuscularly, you may want to consider whether or not the increased bioavailability is worth the additional scar tissue. While 1/2 slin pins will suffice for HCG I.M. injects, plenty of steroid users already have issues with scar tissue build-up. In these cases, the increase in bioavailability may not be worth it, especially when sub-q administration works just fine at the proper dosages.

HMG is another very interesting product (a combination drug containing LH & FSH), but due to the cost of the drug (especially when using it throughout one's cycle at an optimal dosing frequency and dosage), and with the conversation mainly being centered around testosterone restoration (HMG is a potent fertility drug, as well), I am going to limit my discussion to HCG. When it comes to fertility, HMG is clearly the superior choice, but in terms of testosterone production, HCG will do the job just fine at a fraction of the cost.

As stated above, HCG administration should continue to be used after the cycle is over until 2 days before the last steroid clears the sytem. PCT should be initiated 1 day after the last steroid clears. You do NOT want to run HCG during PCT, as HCG itself is suppressive of natural test production at the level of the pituitary (hinders LH production). HCG's only role is to maintain function of the testes while on-cycle, as this will help decrease recovery time during PCT by allowing the testes to respond more fully to the gonadotopic hormone release initiated via SERM/AI administration.

HCG's suppressive effect is irrelevent during one's cycle, as the steroids are already suppressing LH production. However, once the suppressive effect of the AAS has been removed, continuing to use HCG beyond that point would only make it more difficult for the SERMs/AIs to do their job, slowing recovery.

There has been some debate as to which PCT drugs are best. traditionally, the go-to choices have been Clomid and Nolva. Reserach has shown that both drugs elevate testosterone levels similarly, although Nolva is certainly stronger on a mg per mg basis. However, this does not necessarily mean Nolva is better, as both have their upsides and downsides. Personally, I prefer Clomid for a vareity of reasons, but some others feel differently. Reagardless, one thing most agree on is that they work better together than alone.

While the Clomid & Nolva protocol is the most well known, it is not the only effective option on the table. A newer, and even more effective combination would be a SERM & AI. While research has shown that both SERMs and AI's increase testosterone levels similarly (this is without dispute), they both work through different pathways to increase T levels, while Clomid and Nolva work through the same basic pathway. If experience with these kind of drugs has taught us anything, it is that combining drugs which work through different mechanisms to achieve a particular effect, usually works better than doubling up on drugs which work through identical mechanisms.

Whe using steroids, there are two primary suppressive influences we have to deal with--AAS and estrogen. After one's cycle is complete, there is no longer any need to worry about the suppressive influence of AAS, but this is not the case with estrogen. There are two ways in which estrogen can retard our recovery during PCT. If the user had been using aromatizable drugs during his cycle, estrogen levels will often remain elevated after the AAS clear the system, leaving the user with rock-bottom testosterone levels and elevated estrogen levels--the worst possible scenario. By continuing to use an AI during PCT, estrogen will be kept at bay until hormone levels normalize, providing the individual with an ideal hormonal environment for recovery.

But what if the user never used aromatizable drugs when on-cycle? Even in these case an AI is still beneficial. Remember, as SERMs cause T levels to rise, what is the first thing that happens? That's right--estrogen levels rise along with it, suppressing LH production and preventing T levels from getting as high as possible. In fact, this is exactly how OTC AIs increase T levels in non-steroid users, some of which are/were very powerful products, rivaling prescription AIs. When regulating testosterone production, the brain does not evaluate T levels alone--it also looks at estrogen levels. From the brain's prspective, a higher estrogen levels signifies a higher tstosterone level, as aromatization is the primary mechanism by which estrogen is formed in the male body. Therefore, by minimzing estrogen levels, the brain is "tricked" into thinking T levels are too low, at which point it tells the pituitary to crank out more LH, which then signals the testes to produce testosterone.

The same principle applies during PCT/SERM therpay. As SERMs cause T levels to rise, so to do estrogen levels. Evetually, estrogen levels will reach a point where they become suppressive to LH production, slowing or stopping testosterone production altogether. Therefore, by using an AI with Clomid and/or Nolva, T levels will continue to rise beyod what they would have been with SERM theapy alone. Basically, by using an AI, you are eliminating one of the two suppressive infleunces the brain uses to regulate testosterone production.

Because of this, a SERM & AI protocol is superior to the traditional Clomid & Nolva combo. Now, some guys will chose to use both Clomid, Nolva, and an AI, which may work even better. I have not seen any clinical evidence verifying that statement, but some guys claim it improves their bloodoowrk results over a single SERM and AI program. In my opinion, although I think some improvment is certainly possible, it is probably minimal.

Those who say that mainetance/recovery drugs are useless are clearly lacking knowledge on this subject. PCT is one of the biggest advances in adjunctive performanc enhancement in the last 20 years, allowing guys to cycle steroids for many years with a greatly reduced risk of long-term tstosterone deficieny. For those guys who never go off, or who go off so infrequently that it doesn' even matter, none of this information will be relevant to them, but for those guys who care about being able to maintain their own hormonal production after their steroid using years are over, then these are drugs you want to take full advantage of.
 
Last edited:
As for the comments that PCT makes no difference in terms of recovery--that's ridiculous. This isn't something we need to guess about, guys--it is a known fact, which has not only been proven clinically, but by 1,000's of steroid users world-wide.

If maintaining natural testosterone production is a priority, which it should be for the individual that intends on "cycling" his gear (a good idea for most), then preventatve action should be taken in the form of HCG.

Although recommendations for HCG vary in regards to both onset of administration, frequency of administration, and dosage, I believe that a dosing schedule of 350-400 IU on Mon/Wed/Fri, beginning the first week of the cycle until 2 days before the last steroid clears the system, is superior to the more traditionally recommended 250 IU 2X weekly or 500 IU 2X weekly protocols.

Previously, concerns of desensitization prevented guys from dosing this druig at dosages above 250 IU 2X weekly, but we now know these concerns were heavily over-exaggerated. While the 500 IU 2 X weekly program was certainly an improvment over the lower dosed 250 IU, the dosing frequency was not ideal. With a half-life of roughly 33 hours, HCG should be injected roughly every 2nd day in order to maintain blood levels, with every 3rd day being the maximum. Otherwise, the drug's ability to maintain testosterone production will be limited to only a portion of the week. While this may be sufficient to ward off significant atrophy, why play tug-o-war with your hormonal production all cycle long when there really isn't any need?

Research has also shown that bioavailability is significantly increased with I.M. administration compared to sub-q. Still, before running off and injecting your HCG intramuscularly, you may want to consider whether or not the increased bioavailability is worth the additional scar tissue. While 1/2 slin pins will suffice for HCG I.M. injects, plenty of steroid users already have issues with scar tissue build-up. In these cases, the increase in bioavailability may not be worth it, especially when sub-q administration works just fine at the proper dosages.

HMG is another very interesting product (a combination drug containing LH & FSH), but due to the cost of the drug (especially when using it throughout one's cycle at an optimal dosing frequency and dosage), and with the conversation mainly being centered around testosterone restoration (HMG is a potent fertility drug, as well), I am going to limit my discussion to HCG. When it comes to fertility, HMG is clearly the superior choice, but in terms of testosterone production, HCG will do the job just fine at a fraction of the cost.

As stated above, HCG administration should continue to be used after the cycle is over until 2 days before the last steroid clears the sytem. PCT should be initiated 1 day after the last steroid clears. You do NOT want to run HCG during PCT, as HCG itself is suppressive of natural test production at the level of the pituitary (hinders LH production). HCG's only role is to maintain function of the testes while on-cycle, as this will help decrease recovery time during PCT by allowing the testes to respond more fully to the gonadotopic hormone release initiated via SERM/AI administration.

HCG's suppressive effect is irrelevent during one's cycle, as the steroids are already suppressing LH production. However, once the suppressive effect of the AAS has been removed, continuing to use HCG beyond that point would only make it more difficult for the SERMs/AIs to do their job, slowing recovery.

There has been some debate as to which PCT drugs are best. traditionally, the go-to choices have been Clomid and Nolva. Reserach has shown that both drugs elevate testosterone levels similarly, although Nolva is certainly stronger on a mg per mg basis. However, this does not necessarily mean Nolva is better, as both have their upsides and downsides. Personally, I prefer Clomid for a vareity of reasons, but some others feel differently. Reagardless, one thing most agree on is that they work better together than alone.

While the Clomid & Nolva protocol is the most well known, it is not the only effective option on the table. A newer, and even more effective combination would be a SERM & AI. While research has shown that both SERMs and AI's increase testosterone levels similarly (this is without dispute), they both work through different pathways to increase T levels, while Clomid and Nolva work through the same basic pathway. If experience with these kind of drugs has taught us anything, it is that combining drugs which work through different mechanisms to achieve a particular effect, usually works better than doubling up on drugs which work through identical mechanisms.

Whe using steroids, there are two primary suppressive influences we have to deal with--AAS and estrogen. After one's cycle is complete, there is no longer any need to worry about the suppressive influence of AAS, but this is not the case with estrogen. There are two ways in which estrogen can retard our recovery during PCT. If the user had been using aromatizable drugs during his cycle, estrogen levels will often remain elevated after the AAS clear the system, leaving the user with rock-bottom testosterone levels and elevated estrogen levels--the worst possible scenario. By continuing to use an AI during PCT, estrogen will be kept at bay until hormone levels normalize, providing the individual with an ideal hormonal environment for recovery.

But what if the user never used aromatizable drugs when on-cycle? Even in these case an AI is still beneficial. Remember, as SERMs cause T levels to rise, what is the first thing that happens? That's right--estrogen levels rise along with it, suppressing LH production and preventing T levels from getting as high as possible. In fact, this is exactly how OTC AIs increase T levels in non-steroid users, some of which are/were very powerful products, rivaling prescription AIs. When regulating testosterone production, the brain does not evaluate T levels alone--it also looks at estrogen levels. From the brain's prspective, a higher estrogen levels signifies a higher tstosterone level, as aromatization is the primary mechanism by which estrogen is formed in the male body. Therefore, by minimzing estrogen levels, the brain is "tricked" into thinking T levels are too low, at which point it tells the pituitary to crank out more LH, which then signals the testes to produce testosterone.

The same principle applies during PCT/SERM therpay. As SERMs cause T levels to rise, so to do estrogen levels. Evetually, estrogen levels will reach a point where they become suppressive to LH production, slowing or stopping testosterone production altogether. Therefore, by using an AI with Clomid and/or Nolva, T levels will continue to rise beyod what they would have been with SERM theapy alone. Basically, by using an AI, you are eliminating one of the two suppressive infleunces the brain uses to regulate testosterone production.

Because of this, a SERM & AI protocol is superior to the traditional Clomid & Nolva combo. Now, some guys will chose to use both Clomid, Nolva, and an AI, which may work even better. I have not seen any clinical evidence verifying that statement, but some guys claim it improves their bloodoowrk results over a single SERM and AI program. In my opinion, although I think some improvment is certainly possible, it is probably minimal.

Those who say that mainetance/recovery drugs are useless are clearly lacking knowledge on this subject. PCT is one of the biggest advances in adjunctive performanc enhancement in the last 20 years, allowing guys to cycle steroids for many years with a greatly reduced risk of long-term tstosterone deficieny. For those guys who never go off, or who go off so infrequently that it doesn' even matter, none of this information will be relevant to them, but for those guys who care about being able to maintain their own hormonal production after their steroid using years are over, then these are drugs you want to take full advantage of.

Great Post MA

I completely agree here. Could not have said it better, though, could have simplifed....il cliff note for everyone and maybe slight elaboation/clarification lol....

- LH must be cranking for restoration/recovery to occur.

- HCG off cycle will create superphysiological levels of test to be produced (and identified) and hinder LH production so you want to run it while you are ON to keep your HPTA functioning or to kick start it back on before cycle is over.

- SERMs raise T levels, but body will attempt to balance and cause some of the T to aromatize (slowing/stopping the rise of T that we want) and cause a false reading in the feedback loop. False reading (hi estro being read as also high T) causes LH to back off (not what we want).

- Combine AI with SERM. Relating to above, blocking aromatization will keep T levels climbing and estro levels suppressed will keep LH elevated and keep recovery functioning optimally.

- NOT MENTIONED - ease off protocol before stopping

- NOT MENTIONED - activities supporting natural production. Sex, masterbation, working out, anything supporting aggressive behavior or simply sleeping next to a female (all medically/research supported)


Step 1- make sure system is working
Step 2- get system working on its own
Step 3- block conversion (reduction) of test to estro and feedback loops that could slow down system
Step 4- sustain process for period of time
Step 5- --not mentioned-- slowly ease off protocol (like slowly letting go of kid you just taught to ride a bike instead of just letting go all together and they fall)
Step 6- --not mentioned-- conduct activities that support function
 
I did slowly wein off program dropped back to 300mg for a week the next week 150 next week off started hcg for 2000iu every 3 days then after them 2 weeks up take clomid 40mg 2x per day for 3 weeks.....Protocol was given to me from Ifbb Pro and a big name on PM.

THEBIGGUY84
 
Thank you very much to everyone who provided input...especially MA who explained in great depth, and TooPowerful for the "cliff notes"...all of this is exactly what I needed to read. I think I have a much better understanding of the overall concept...both while on cycle and from a PCT standpoint. You guys are a Godsend.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Forum statistics

Total page views
559,222,188
Threads
136,052
Messages
2,777,274
Members
160,427
Latest member
Spinaltap88
NapsGear
HGH Power Store email banner
your-raws
Prowrist straps store banner
infinity
FLASHING-BOTTOM-BANNER-210x131
raws
Savage Labs Store email
Syntherol Site Enhancing Oil Synthol
aqpharma
YMSApril210131
hulabs
ezgif-com-resize-2-1
MA Research Chem store banner
MA Supps Store Banner
volartek
Keytech banner
musclechem
Godbullraw-bottom-banner
Injection Instructions for beginners
Knight Labs store email banner
3
ashp131
YMS-210x131-V02
Back
Top