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If your training is hard enough is cardio needed?

I think some have unrealistic fears about exactly how much their gains will be affected by a little walk or jog. I used to be the same. Until I realized just 'looking' in shape isnt enough.

You can be lean and still be horribly unhealthy on the inside. What good is it to have a big engine but little gas tank lol :confused:
 
LOL! From reading this site, I think I'm one of the rare few that actually likes cardio. It clears my mind, helps me to figure out some of the myriad things that puzzle me or I just lose myself in some good music.

I like the way i feel when i do it consistently honestly.

I enjoy it, i load some tv series on my ipod touch, set it on the treadmill and go for a nice walk!=-)
 
There is a lot of denial going on here! Everyone hates cardio and wants to rationalize why they don't need to do it.

You NEED extended moderate intensity cardio if you want good cardiovascular health. You will not see lowered BP from intense weight training, even if your heart rate is elevated nearly all the time. Also, you will not see the lipid benefits of cardio from weight training. Finally, and probably most importantly for a lot of people here, you will not see lowered hematocrit from weight training, however cardio will significantly lower your hematocrit...

Have you experienced this personally? If so, how much cardio and how long are we talking to see improvements? And are you talking low hr long-duration, or high hr? I do cardio and my hematocrit isn't great.
 
Cardio doesn't really have an effect on hematocrit levels, I think people are confusing that with the fact that intense cardio decreases certain factors in the clotting cascade, while at the same time increasing anti-clotting factors. The end result being the same, decreased risk of CVD, stroke, and heart attack. The recommended amount is 40 minutes 5 days/ week of moderate to intense cardio. As far as hematocrit levels go, a major portion of hematorcrit are RBC's which function to transport oxygen, making the stimulus of cardio unlikely to reduce that capacity.
 
Have you experienced this personally? If so, how much cardio and how long are we talking to see improvements? And are you talking low hr long-duration, or high hr? I do cardio and my hematocrit isn't great.

About 3 months of mid intensity cardio for 40minutes 6 days a week dropped my hematocrit from around 55 to 50. I have noticed this effect several other times when doing cardio precontest, and I have spoken to people who also believe cardio is the solution to elevated crit from TRT/AAS.
 
Cardio doesn't really have an effect on hematocrit levels, I think people are confusing that with the fact that intense cardio decreases certain factors in the clotting cascade, while at the same time increasing anti-clotting factors. The end result being the same, decreased risk of CVD, stroke, and heart attack. The recommended amount is 40 minutes 5 days/ week of moderate to intense cardio. As far as hematocrit levels go, a major portion of hematorcrit are RBC's which function to transport oxygen, making the stimulus of cardio unlikely to reduce that capacity.

Your body increase RBCs to increase oxygen carrying capacity. Cardio increases your stroke volume and cardiac efficiency to such a degree that the body doesn't feel the need to make more RBCs.
 
Early morning empty stomach cardio at 75% max heart rate is the only type I do while prepping for a contest. I may not be getting pure cardio benefit, but I burn through that last bit of stubborn fat that fatburners, clen or whatever doesn't get. My weight training is pretty intense with lots of supersets...If I wasn't panting my ass off, i'd probably do more pure cardio.
 
Your body increase RBCs to increase oxygen carrying capacity. Cardio increases your stroke volume and cardiac efficiency to such a degree that the body doesn't feel the need to make more RBCs.

Hematorcrit levels are a percentage, a proportion by volume. A conditioned athlete may have as much as 35% more blood volume, which is essentially increased through the increase in plasma levels. This would result in a significant decrease in how hematorcrit is measured (as a percentage) but RBC count would not decrease (actual number of RBC/ hemoglobin molecules) , however the percentage / proportion does as a result of the increased plasma volume. You are trying to relate a proportion to a relatively fixed number. As, I said, intense cardio is not a stimulus that is likely to lower the bodies O2 carrying capacity by reducing RBC/ hemoglobin. Regardless, the point is, yes be concerned if your hematorcrit levels are consistently high; but something as simple as being dehydrated can result in a high hematorcrit, because plasma levels are decreased. Even with a high hematorcrit level resulting in increased blood viscosity the benefits from cardio are still the decreased clotting factors (fibrinogen, prothrombin, hageman factor) and increases the anti-clotting factors much the same way aspirin or warfarin would. These so called blood thinners work by decreasing viscosity and is a result of their effect on the clotting cascade.
 
Hematorcrit levels are a percentage, a proportion by volume. A conditioned athlete may have as much as 35% more blood volume, which is essentially increased through the increase in plasma levels. This would result in a significant decrease in how hematorcrit is measured (as a percentage) but RBC count would not decrease (actual number of RBC/ hemoglobin molecules) , however the percentage / proportion does as a result of the increased plasma volume. You are trying to relate a proportion to a relatively fixed number. As, I said, intense cardio is not a stimulus that is likely to lower the bodies O2 carrying capacity by reducing RBC/ hemoglobin. Regardless, the point is, yes be concerned if your hematorcrit levels are consistently high; but something as simple as being dehydrated can result in a high hematorcrit, because plasma levels are decreased. Even with a high hematorcrit level resulting in increased blood viscosity the benefits from cardio are still the decreased clotting factors (fibrinogen, prothrombin, hageman factor) and increases the anti-clotting factors much the same way aspirin or warfarin would. These so called blood thinners work by decreasing viscosity and is a result of their effect on the clotting cascade.

Good info there. This is the reason I have been hitting cardio so much harder/consistent now after my heart attack. Im on coumadin now becaues I had a clot that caused the heart attack. Back then I was on AAS and not doing any cardio at all really. Turns out I have a genetic trait too, factor 2 protrombin mutation. Cardio has made me feel much more healthy now. I do kinda feel like crap when Im doing it though since my heart is so beat up now, but I feel great after I am done.
 
Hematorcrit levels are a percentage, a proportion by volume. A conditioned athlete may have as much as 35% more blood volume, which is essentially increased through the increase in plasma levels. This would result in a significant decrease in how hematorcrit is measured (as a percentage) but RBC count would not decrease (actual number of RBC/ hemoglobin molecules) , however the percentage / proportion does as a result of the increased plasma volume. You are trying to relate a proportion to a relatively fixed number. As, I said, intense cardio is not a stimulus that is likely to lower the bodies O2 carrying capacity by reducing RBC/ hemoglobin. Regardless, the point is, yes be concerned if your hematorcrit levels are consistently high; but something as simple as being dehydrated can result in a high hematorcrit, because plasma levels are decreased. Even with a high hematorcrit level resulting in increased blood viscosity the benefits from cardio are still the decreased clotting factors (fibrinogen, prothrombin, hageman factor) and increases the anti-clotting factors much the same way aspirin or warfarin would. These so called blood thinners work by decreasing viscosity and is a result of their effect on the clotting cascade.

This is all true, however we are talking about a special situation here, hematocrit much higher than it's supposed to be due to long term TRT/AAS. For some people, myself included, cardio simply works. I see it again and again on my bloodwork, and I'm always careful to be at maximum hydration when I do bloodwork.
 
This is all true, however we are talking about a special situation here, hematocrit much higher than it's supposed to be due to long term TRT/AAS. For some people, myself included, cardio simply works. I see it again and again on my bloodwork, and I'm always careful to be at maximum hydration when I do bloodwork.

Well, it doesnt work for everyone. I just do not want guys thinking that if they have a high hematocrit all they have to do is start doing a bunch of cardio and the problem will go away. Evidentally what happend to you and some others with lowering hematocrit with cardio is a complex process. I for one can vouch that it did not impact my hematocrit at all. I did 50 minutes each lifting day, so thats 5-6 days a week on the treadmill. i average about 3.8 mph and do a bit over 3 miles.
 
These studies have found that endurance training also increases red blood cell volume by a small percent. It should be noted that even though red blood cell volume may increase due to endurance training, relatively speaking, there is a much greater increase in the plasma portion of blood producing a lower hematocrit value. This is a desired effect as blood with a lower ratio of red blood cells to plasma is less viscous, facilitating greater blood flow throughout the vascular system.

This link explains it in more detail, can't copy and paste:
Advanced Cardiovascular Exercise ... - Google Books

I'm surprised I didn't know about this, it explains why cardio does decrease hematocrit. Maldorf, it wouldn't surprise me if certain blood disorders negate this effect...
 
This link explains it in more detail, can't copy and paste:
Advanced Cardiovascular Exercise ... - Google Books

I'm surprised I didn't know about this, it explains why cardio does decrease hematocrit. Maldorf, it wouldn't surprise me if certain blood disorders negate this effect...

Well, hard to say whats going on really. So many factors. Maybe my heart rate isnt getting up fast enough? m on the highest dose of beta blocker you can take and I cant really get my rate up over about 135 bpm. If I went much higher I would feel like shit anyways so its good that the med keeps it down.
Ive read other studies, mostly about cyclists, that state that cardio does lower HCT over the long run. I think thats why so many of them use EPO to help them out even more.

Wow, nice book you found there!
 
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Well, hard to say whats going on really. So many factors. Maybe my heart rate isnt getting up fast enough? m on the highest dose of beta blocker you can take and I cant really get my rate up over about 135 bpm. If I went much higher I would feel like shit anyways so its good that the med keeps it down.
Ive read other studies, mostly about cyclists, that state that cardio does lower HCT over the long run. I think thats why so many of them use EPO to help them out even more.

Wow, nice book you found there!

I completely agree with you that people shouldn't think doing cardio is enough if they have elevated hematocrit. Hematocrit needs to be taken very seriously, blood needs to be donated, and crit levels watched closely by anyone on HRT/AAS. For some of us, I think they will be pleasantly surprised by how well cardio might work, for others, it might not work at all. I'm very thankful for your constant reminders about these dangers. My doctor is the same way, he is on me about my crit levels constantly, he also sees it as a primary concern.
 

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