Insulin - New Mike Arnold protocol. 5x per week indefinitely

[b_cornelius]

Attempts of attack on those parties involved for a diversion to sway the readers off topic. Emotions over taking directive of the topic.

Basically is what b was saying.

Yes, and emotions as a whole can overtake a directive per strand of logic, but I was not saying that emotions themselves are not logical.

I believe that emotions are both conjuntive and probable logic. That's why people can "feel" logically.

And when you feel "anger." the logic-as-a-whole is in a state-of-conflict.

Regardless, people have dodged some responses here.

 

[Elvia1023]

Yes, and emotions as a whole can overtake a directive per strand of logic, but I was not saying that emotions themselves are not logical.

I believe that emotions are both conjuntive and probable logic. That's why people can "feel" logically.

And when you feel "anger." the logic-as-a-whole is in a state-of-conflict.

Regardless, people have dodged some responses here.

Yours posts are like riddles at times. But I understand this so that tells me I am fit for the gym. I was starting to struggle at 4am but have made it. I think today will be the first time I have ever been the gym before 9am

 

[kinglewy]

Yours posts are like riddles at times. But I understand this so that tells me I am fit for the gym. I was starting to struggle at 4am but have made it. I think today will be the first time I have ever been the gym before 9am

I love b cornelious's posts...very deep at times elluding the shallow minded. But i catch his subtle nuances...makes me wonder if he plays chess...would be a good oponent

 

[Mike Arnold]

No Mike, you throw up smoke screens and diversions when asked to provide burden of proof.

I could care less if anyone on this planet prefers berberine over metformin or vice-versa. I've handed down information on the potential for interactions with berberine, if those who choose too use, to be cautious. I've also handed down optional choices to an adjuvant to aid in the absorption with berberine. Which I'm sure you'll take both of these and regurgitate as if you discovered this upon your own findings.

So no where within this thread or anywhere else have I told other's not to use BBR.

I've really wasted a lot of my time with you on several occasions. Forget not, I'll still provide to those an area of interest to gain more insight than what has been present by you or whom ever else to ensure there's more than just one person's insight. We all gain from this. Even moreso when we insert citations for burden of proof.

I've already responded to this many times. Let me try again. It has not been evaluated for this effect in isolation, but as I said previously, all the other variables have been. My opinion is the opinion of those who do this research, as well as many others. At this point it appears to be the general consensus. This is why I have repeatedly said "take it up with them if you disagree with them", as this is where my belief comes from. Given the circumstances, it is extremely likely that metformin has this effect. I read some information as to "why" this is generally considered to be the case, but the subject matter was a bit to deep for me to understand. However, the conclusion was not.

The bottom line is that metformin, when evaluating ALL the available evidence, appears to be the worst choice for a bodybuilders due it its ability to reduce AR density and blunt AR function.

At this point, it would be wise for any bodybuilder, given the available evidence, to discontinue metformin in favor of berberine. It is clear you disagree--and that's fine, but you are the only one I have spoken who understands the issues at hand that feels this way. I believe your advice is poor...just like your advice regarding AI's was poor.

Unfortunately, you are the kind of person who demands unquestionable, undeniable clinical proof for everything...and if someone takes a stand in opposition to yours, while lacking this unquestionable proof (regardless of how strong the "evidence" might be), you will do everything in your power to convince people that your way is the right way, even if it means giving bad advice.

This is exactly what you've done here--give BAD advice by telling people you think metformin is better for bodybuilders. You also did this in the thread about AI's. You argued as hard as you possibly could to convince others that all AI's were equally likely to injure their lipid profile, just because you wanted to win the argument. Now, I think most people here knew enough about this subject to realize, despite all your arguments, that it was was horribly misguided advice (this includes every coach I have spoken to on the matter, and basically everyone else, really).

Still, even to this day you deny the difference between AI's in this regard. Why? Because you have little to no real-world experience. You sit in a lab and at the computer, but you aren't actually involved in this industry, so you don't see what happens when people use these drugs. You only have clinical studies to reference when searching for answers, which are great because they really help us out in a lot of ways, but often, the answers just don't exist in clinical medicine. There are many, many "truths" that all bodybuilders hold as such, yet they never have and never will be "proven" clinically. Yet we all accept them.


Maybe I should have said right up front that "all the evidence indicates" and "the general consensus is", but it didn't even occur to me given the (what appears to be a unanimous) belief of those who do this research for a living. My point was to warn people of the side effects and explain why metformin is no longer the best choice for bodybuilders. Just about everything I present as truth is either based on solid evidence or overwhelming real-world experience, and when available, unquestionable clinical "poof". This is true of all good coaches.

A much more grievous action is you giving bad advice just so you can try and win an argument...and don't even say you were just trying to point out that the evidence wasn't irrefutable, as you started this shit WAY before you even read the study and realized it wasn't studied in isolation. That only came up a few pages ago and had nothing to do with 90% of the crap you said here. At this point, no one with a solid grasp of the facts, or who has good intentions, would continue to argue metformin's superiority for bodybuilders--at least no one I have encountered, except you. Why? Because the evidence doesn't favor it--not from a bodybuilding standpoint--and you know this, yet you tried your best to discredit my belief that metformin was no longer the best choice for bodybuilders--with ZERO evidence to show metformin was better (again, this was before you even knew metformin wasn't studied in isolation). All you did to try and win was cast off this new research as irrelevant.



For anyone that is reading this. The truth of the matter is that all evidence shows that metformin is more likely to hinder your bodybuilding progress than berberine. Berberine also appears to have less overall side effects and more health benefits, although much more still needs to be learned. In most cases, nature offers us the better alternative. You should always look there first (almost always), as the remedies nature provides often deliver the benefits we desire without the harsh side effects of prescription drugs. Of course, those in the medical profession will completely disagree with me on this, but those who know better, know better. The AMA is about profit, as are the pharms. The number of people turning to berberine, even for the treatment of diabetes, is astounding. .

Also, when it comes to AI's, I caution you against viewing all AI's as equal in terms of cholesterol values. I know many of you already know this because you've seen the evidence in your own life--your own blood work, but for those of you who don't know, please look into this before making a decision. In general, when listing the 3 main AI's from best to worst (in terms of cholesterol damage), you are going to have aromasin, a-dex, and letrozole. Of course, you can always test this for yourself in your own life via bloodwork. A-dex is sometimes OK, but letrozole is usually the worst.

I know there have been a lot of pages between this thread and the AI thread, but after all of it the truth remains.

1.) Metformin is more likely to hamper your BB'ing efforts

2.) Aromasin, A-dex, and letrozole are not all equal in terms of their ability to affect the lipid profile.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Mike, are you going to post the studies on Metformin? If not, this thread just needs to be locked.

I'm asking for educational purposes as I've never read this in the research nor have I ever once heard any professional ever state this as the case.

That's silly. The reality of the research has never been in question. Even Stewie will tell you that. I didn't save it in my computer, but you can easily find it in PubMed. Perhaps Stewie saved a ink.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Meaning someone who had at least been in shape and competed. And or built themselves into a monster.

As a matter of fact in all my years 99% of the legit guidance I have received has been from such individuals all the rest is just bullshit. As in real life we have seen this played out time and time again on this board.

Ronnie could of had a monkey do his diet and it would of worked.

Then that cancels out a lot of the industries best minds--both past and present.

I have never had any desire to get ripped, nor step onstage (aside from when I was still natural). Even if I did "get onstage" ripped as hell, it wouldn't mean anything, as I have already demonstrated the ability to get people in shape. I am sorry, Lex, but saying 99% of all the legit guidance you have ever read/heard has only come from ripped competitors/monsters is straight up retarded. I can't even begin to tell you how much good information has been provided from people that don't fit in either of those categories, including many of today's (and the past) best coaches, as well as a ton of people on this board. That would automatically make me and a million other people incapable of giving good advice.

No offense, but that wasn't a very well thought out comment. Geez. You've also pretty much just called the majority of great coaches in every sport incompetent.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I's a shame to see this. But if two guys don't like eachother it's gonna happen. Although for such a small thing it's turned into a massive argument. As others have stated knowledge is knowledge but of course you mainly want to get it from people who walk the walk. People with a passion for weightlifting and not just someone who can use google. Although I love the science behind bodybuilding and thats why I am such a fan of Stewie, Mike and many others on the forums.

Mike is great and full of knowledge so this shouldn't be turned into something it is not. Although in my eyes Stewie is right he what he has stated. Everyone can make a mistake from time to time or say something they may have slightly misinterpreted. Metformin from my knowledge (and scamming some of the studies posted in my tired state) doesn't eliminate the androgen receptor. Stewie mentioned Bicalutamide... I didn't have a clue what that was. I assume that was used in a study with Metformin and that was the reason for AR downregulation? So this is why Mike stated what he did assuming it was due to metformin? I guess if you are wrong you don't want to admit it to someone being so in your face about it.

I don't like the way when one person has a go others seem to follow. In my eyes Mike has only been great for the bodybuilding community and has helped a lot of guys out.

Well I am staying up all night and this thread helped me out alittle as I was struggling. Forgive my tired ramblings

I was well aware it was studied in conjunction with Bicalutamide. I was the one who referred Stewie to the study. If you read my prior post you will see that this was what I (and FF7) was saying--which is "where those other variable studied in isolation?" and from I have been told, the answer is "yes", which is why many respected minds in that field have gone on the record stating that it does indeed reduce AR density.

Knowing this, we can either agree with this opinion or disagree. Personally, I am more likely to agree with the person who actually does this for a living--an expert on this very subject who contributes to medical journals, over Stewie. So, before anyone starts thinking the study was "misinterpreted", that is not the case. I simply agree with those who are more likely to be correct. Knowing that, like FF7 said, why would we use something when the more knowledgeable people claim this risk is very real in the every day person?

 

[LEX]

Then that cancels out a lot of the industries best minds--both past and present.

I have never had any desire to get ripped, nor step onstage (aside from when I was still natural). Even if I did "get onstage" ripped as hell, it wouldn't mean anything, as I have already demonstrated the ability to get people in shape. I am sorry, Lex, but saying 99% of all the legit guidance you have ever read/heard has only come from ripped competitors/monsters is straight up retarded. I can't even begin to tell you how much good information has been provided from people that don't fit in either of those categories, including many of today's (and the past) best coaches, as well as a ton of people on this board. That would automatically make me and a million other people incapable of giving good advice.

No offense, but that wasn't a very well thought out comment. Geez. You've also pretty much just called the majority of great coaches in every sport incompetent.

No it was well thought out and I meant it. I thinking of all the people whom communicate and I listen and YES...they are all either in a specimen of heath themselves..or a past bodybuilder/power lifter who actually went thought it. Kind of like DC's story I would drive out to Cali or Phx and stalk the big guys at the guy to ask them questions and watch them workout...that's how I came up with 90% of the shit that works for me. Earlier on in my career I paid a non competitor coach and learned my lesson real good. After that guy destroyed me the one big guy at the gym pulled me aside and gave me some solid guidance. He like many mentors from that point on in my life said you are taking advise from a guy sitting on the side line.

I like Poliquin. He was never a competitor right? yea ok but the guy has been a walking physical specimen since at least 94 when I met him. He is what in his 50's now and under 7% with muscle. He takes his own advise.

To give another example I have just started a new venture in real estate. After reading and being on boards talking to people I get in the car with a guy doing exactly what I am trying to do and in 15 min learned more then 3 months of researching.

You maybe a great coach or what ever you do but I would never hire you. Just my personal preference based on being fucked in the past by "experts" who never did the things I was trying to do. That does not mean you don't have knowledge or a different view point that would lead me to something valuable. This board as many others has had its share of guys sounding like experts that have never had their shirt of at the beach or benched double their body weight. I am not saying you are useless member. You are a good member here and contribute some good info. But I will always take it as theoretical and not practical because you yourself aren't doing it or have not gone through it.

 

[Stewie]

I've already responded to this many times. Let me try again. It has not been evaluated for this effect in isolation, but as I said previously, all the other variables have been. My opinion is the opinion of those who do this research, as well as many others. At this point it appears to be the general consensus. This is why I have repeatedly said "take it up with them if you disagree with them", as this is where my belief comes from. Given the circumstances, it is extremely likely that metformin has this effect. I read some information as to "why" this is generally considered to be the case, but the subject matter was a bit to deep for me to understand. However, the conclusion was not.

The bottom line is that metformin, when evaluating ALL the available evidence, appears to be the worst choice for a bodybuilders due it its ability to reduce AR density and blunt AR function.

At this point, it would be wise for any bodybuilder, given the available evidence, to discontinue metformin in favor of berberine. It is clear you disagree--and that's fine, but you are the only one I have spoken who understands the issues at hand that feels this way. I believe your advice is poor...just like your advice regarding AI's was poor.

Unfortunately, you are the kind of person who demands unquestionable, undeniable clinical proof for everything...and if someone takes a stand in opposition to yours, while lacking this unquestionable proof (regardless of how strong the "evidence" might be), you will do everything in your power to convince people that your way is the right way, even if it means giving bad advice.

This is exactly what you've done here--give BAD advice by telling people you think metformin is better for bodybuilders. You also did this in the thread about AI's. You argued as hard as you possibly could to convince others that all AI's were equally likely to injure their lipid profile, just because you wanted to win the argument. Now, I think most people here knew enough about this subject to realize, despite all your arguments, that it was was horribly misguided advice (this includes every coach I have spoken to on the matter, and basically everyone else, really).

Still, even to this day you deny the difference between AI's in this regard. Why? Because you have little to no real-world experience. You sit in a lab and at the computer, but you aren't actually involved in this industry, so you don't see what happens when people use these drugs. You only have clinical studies to reference when searching for answers, which are great because they really help us out in a lot of ways, but often, the answers just don't exist in clinical medicine. There are many, many "truths" that all bodybuilders hold as such, yet they never have and never will be "proven" clinically. Yet we all accept them.


Maybe I should have said right up front that "all the evidence indicates" and "the general consensus is", but it didn't even occur to me given the (what appears to be a unanimous) belief of those who do this research for a living. My point was to warn people of the side effects and explain why metformin is no longer the best choice for bodybuilders. Just about everything I present as truth is either based on solid evidence or overwhelming real-world experience, and when available, unquestionable clinical "poof". This is true of all good coaches.

A much more grievous action is you giving bad advice just so you can try and win an argument...and don't even say you were just trying to point out that the evidence wasn't irrefutable, as you started this shit WAY before you even read the study and realized it wasn't studied in isolation. That only came up a few pages ago and had nothing to do with 90% of the crap you said here. At this point, no one with a solid grasp of the facts, or who has good intentions, would continue to argue metformin's superiority for bodybuilders--at least no one I have encountered, except you. Why? Because the evidence doesn't favor it--not from a bodybuilding standpoint--and you know this, yet you tried your best to discredit my belief that metformin was no longer the best choice for bodybuilders--with ZERO evidence to show metformin was better (again, this was before you even knew metformin wasn't studied in isolation). All you did to try and win was cast off this new research as irrelevant.



For anyone that is reading this. The truth of the matter is that all evidence shows that metformin is more likely to hinder your bodybuilding progress than berberine. Berberine also appears to have less overall side effects and more health benefits, although much more still needs to be learned. In most cases, nature offers us the better alternative. You should always look there first (almost always), as the remedies nature provides often deliver the benefits we desire without the harsh side effects of prescription drugs. Of course, those in the medical profession will completely disagree with me on this, but those who know better, know better. The AMA is about profit, as are the pharms. The number of people turning to berberine, even for the treatment of diabetes, is astounding. .

Also, when it comes to AI's, I caution you against viewing all AI's as equal in terms of cholesterol values. I know many of you already know this because you've seen the evidence in your own life--your own blood work, but for those of you who don't know, please look into this before making a decision. In general, when listing the 3 main AI's from best to worst (in terms of cholesterol damage), you are going to have aromasin, a-dex, and letrozole. Of course, you can always test this for yourself in your own life via bloodwork. A-dex is sometimes OK, but letrozole is usually the worst.

I know there have been a lot of pages between this thread and the AI thread, but after all of it the truth remains.

1.) Metformin is more likely to hamper your BB'ing efforts

2.) Aromasin, A-dex, and letrozole are not all equal in terms of their ability to affect the lipid profile.

I've already posted this once in this thread. Here it is again. Maybe you can give me a directive too where I stated your non-germane comments.

Here's the thread. Show me and the readers within.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/120447-estro-476-a-3.html

Not in one sentence, nor with one inclination did I claim one AI was better than the other on the adverse effects on lipids. Now did I? So again, please explain how I'm "wrong".... Or is it because of you being a coach looking at a few lab's of a select few individuals that their "anecdotal evidence" is compelling evidence, everyone should only use exmestane? Yeah, okay.

I'll even add a bit to it from that same thread you are referring to.


You do realize the data is mixed and inconclusive on the adverse effects on lipid profiles between different AI's. See below.

Some say Aromasin has negative impact on lipids, some say Anastrozle has no impact on lipids. Even letrozole stating both sides of the coin.

Incidentally several things have a detrimental effect on lipids. One being the individuals genetic metabolism and expression of HMG-CoA reductase, which is an enzyme in the liver involved in the production of cholesterol. As well the efficacy of metabolizing enzymes of many hormonal reactants. Not to mention uncontrolled OSA's effects on lipid parameters.

It's the individual.

Lastly, being on a cycle has it's own adverse effects on lipids. Why people get hung up on any one particular AI being tauted as the demon on lipids, is beyond me.

British Journal of Cancer - The effects of aromatase inhibitors on lipids and thrombosis

Available data are mixed, but suggest that the different aromatase inhibitors have different effects on lipid profiles. Some studies show anastrozole as generally having little effect on lipids, while others have indicated adverse effects on lipid profiles/increased hypercholesterolaemia.

CCR: Mobile Edition
Anastrozole treatment has no impact on plasma lipid levels, whereas both letrozole and exemestane have an unfavorable effect. From indirect comparisons, anastrozole shows the highest degree of selectivity compared with letrozole and exemestane, in terms of a lack of effect on adrenosteroidogenesis

Ann_Oncology
Conclusion: Anastrozole did not have a detrimental effect on lipid profiles following 3 months of therapy. There was a significant increase in CTx with anastrozole in contrast to tamoxifen.

Effect of Letrozole on Plasma Lipids, Triglycerides, and Estradiol in Postmenopausal Women with Metastatic Breast Cancer
Letrozole has a safe effect on the lipid and TGL profiles of postmenopausal women with MBC. Estradiol levels were maximally suppressed within 6 months of treatment. The increased levels of TC during treatment were reversible and returned to normal levels after 3 months.

Effect of aromatase inhibition on lipid... - PubMed Mobile - NCBI
CONCLUSIONS: While short-term administration of anastrozole is an effective method of normalizing serum testosterone levels in elderly men with mild hypogonadism, it does not appear to adversely affect lipid profiles, inflammatory markers of cardiovascular risk or insulin resistance.

The effect of exemestane, anastrozole, ... - PubMed Mobile - NCBI
CONCLUSION: Changes of lipid profiles in Japanese postmenopausal women treated with tamoxifen were relatively favorable, while exemestane and anastrozole had no clinically significant effect on the serum lipids.

Two can play this game.... Although, I must say, 2 wrongs don't make a right

Hey Mike, while you're at it let's share with the audience how well you interpret data. Remember this one pal

The evidence was compelling, or so you say

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...714-hematocrit-dropped-12-points-6-weeks.html

Bout how the evidence is for grapefruit juice to lower ones HH.

But hey, youve got it all figured out.

P.S

Wanna inform the readers how cancer is a recent development...lol

Don't you have a sixth grade teacher to beat in arm wrestling... You was what 10 or 11 at the time...Lmao

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Someone emailed me and said I was being mentioned on this thread...Im friends with both these guys, think highly of both of them....I skimmed a little bit but stopped reading quickly.....I would like to think they can come to some sort of middle ground here....because lets look at the big picture.....I believe we are arguing about metformin a compound and in the grand scheme of things this argument means piddly squat..... its really starting to look like there are parallel universes as ours, other alien structures out there Search For Intelligent Aliens Near Bizarre Dimming Star Has Begun , and there are many bigger earths out there that have been around much longer than us **broken link removed**

The people on kepler 452-b dont want to visit us because we spend too much time arguing about metformin.

Hows that for a segue?

 

[Mike Arnold]

No it was well thought out and I meant it. I thinking of all the people whom communicate and I listen and YES...they are all either in a specimen of heath themselves..or a past bodybuilder/power lifter who actually went thought it.

Kind of like DC's story I would drive out to Cali or Phx and stalk the big guys at the guy to ask them questions and watch them workout...that's how I came up with 90% of the shit that works for me.
Great point. Going by your criteria, DC doesn't qualify as a competent coach either, as he was never a competitor (to my knowledge), never got ripped (to my knowledge), and sure wasn't a "monster" by bodybuilding standards....an don't quote bodyweight. Dante had 20 something pounds on me at my heaviest (I hit 274-175 at one point, but only maintained it for like 2 weeks, as I was miserable eating that much) and I wasn't even able to train my legs for nearly 10 years when I hit my heaviest bodyweight--and neither of us were ripped. Note: For the record, I think the amount of size Dante gained, especially given his starting point, was a great achievement and he did about the most he could do with what he had

Earlier on in my career I paid a non competitor coach and learned my lesson real good. After that guy destroyed me the one big guy at the gym pulled me aside and gave me some solid guidance. He like many mentors from that point on in my life said you are taking advise from a guy sitting on the side line.
Sounds like you hired an idiot. Furthermore, you act as if I was just 'sitting on the sideline", which is not the case at all. Many years, decades, were spent in the gym around "all the big guys", who ironically now come to me for advice (even though I was a kid when they were men). So, I have spent plenty of time "doing" bodybuilding. You can't fault me for wanting to stop at 272 lbs (the heaviest weight I ever maintained for an extended period of time). That's still better than most, and I NEVER abused drugs. Unlike many guys in this sport, I thought destroying my health for nothing other than personal gain was stupid when there was no money to be made from it. In my opinion, men that have families and stand little to no chance of making a living from this sport are making a VERY dumb decision by giving their everything to bodybuilding. Pounding a bunch of steroids, GH, and insulin, while gorging your fucking ass off for a decade doesn't take intelligence and is something anyone can do if they really want to. But anyone who does this without making money from it, especially when they have a family, is a dolt.

In my case, I never wanted to go the heavy drug route. I pretty much stayed away from GH entirely and insulin use is limited to pre-workout only, as I believe the risks are basically nil when insulin sensitivity is properly managed. So, this whole idea you have that I was never into bodybuilding myself is completely misguided. I made a "decision" not to pursue it to a higher level because it would have been dumb to do so...for me...and many others who are not only wasting their life away, but also their health.

Regardless, your idea that someone either has to have been ripped or a monster in order to give good advice has been proven wrong so many times I can't even believe you said it. Are that you detached from the sport? Just look at all the great coaches we have who don't fit your criteria, and all the people who either specialize or are experts in various areas. Many of these people are highly respected, yet they don't meet either of your criteria. I don't think there is really anything else to be said about it, as any further attempt to portray no-competitors/non-monsters as incompetent has already been disproven too many times to mention--throughout the sport's entire history...and ever other sport for that matter.

I like Poliquin. He was never a competitor right? yea ok but the guy has been a walking physical specimen since at least 94 when I met him. He is what in his 50's now and under 7% with muscle. He takes his own advise.
He has built moderate size and is lean----like a million other people I see at the gym every day...who know very little.

To give another example I have just started a new venture in real estate. After reading and being on boards talking to people I get in the car with a guy doing exactly what I am trying to do and in 15 min learned more then 3 months of researching.

You maybe a great coach or what ever you do but I would never hire you.
I might not take you on.

Just my personal preference based on being fucked in the past by "experts" who never did the things I was trying to do.
If you were 'fucked" then they weren't very good at what they do...and hardly experts.

That does not mean you don't have knowledge or a different view point that would lead me to something valuable. This board as many others has had its share of guys sounding like experts that have never had their shirt of at the beach or benched double their body weight. I am not saying you are useless member. You are a good member here and contribute some good info. But I will always take it as theoretical and not practical because you yourself aren't doing it or have not gone through it.
Like I already said, I "did it" for a long time. I won't even address the last part, as it is just silly. knowledge is knowledge my friend, it is either right or wrong. It either works or it doesn't. It's really that simple.

...

 

[Mike Arnold]

Stewie...not going to take the time to read your post, but I did skim it. You stance on AI's is well known. Don't try ad bullshit anyone. The people can go read the thread themselves.

You also prove my point about AI's, which is that your only knowledge of how they impact lipids comes from studies, which are constantly being contradicted and dis proven. Bodybuilding isn't all about studies.

My knowledge on AI's comes from both research and SEEING what happens in bodybuilders all the time. Go right ahead and keep telling bodybuilders letrozole is no more likely to affect their cholesterol than aromasin, but you're going to hurt people.

 

[pesty4077]

I get what Lex I saying and I am like him. I want guys who walk the walk and not just knowledgeable, however I get that some good coaches do not. This is why I feel this way. When I first went to the gym, IFBB Pro Marty Vranicar own it. I was only 150 pounds and very skinny. This guy had 20" arms. I am lucky if I had 12" arms. I was in awe. He took me on for free at that time. One thing Marty like about me is I had drive and determination. I would not have got that drive without training with some of the best power lifters and body builders in that area training there and pushing me. I went to 200 pounds in less then 2 years because of it. I wanted to be like them and fit in. With in 6 years training, I enter a show and won at a shredded 217. All because these guys were better then me. I attached a picture of that show. I would NEVER look like that without those guys, who were my inspiration. Not taking sides, just saying I would have never had 6 years training that hard without training with guys who looked way above my par.

 

[nothuman]

It really pains me to see everyone ganging up on Mike Arnold here, especially when it's guys I also like. Can this thread just get locked?

 

[gotgame]

Stewie...not going to take the time to read your post, but I did skim it. You stance on AI's is well known. Don't try ad bullshit anyone. The people can go read the thread themselves.

You also prove my point about AI's, which is that your only knowledge of how they impact lipids comes from studies, which are constantly being contradicted and dis proven. Bodybuilding isn't all about studies.

My knowledge on AI's comes from both research and SEEING what happens in bodybuilders all the time. Go right ahead and keep telling bodybuilders letrozole is no more likely to affect their cholesterol than aromasin, but you're going to hurt people.

Mike you know I have disagreed with things you have said before in the past so I will say that I agree with the sentiment that letro is worse on lipids then aromasin and adex.

I cant begin to even think about how many labs and lipid panels I have looked at from AAS users over the years. I get PM'd daily, texts from people I know personally and phone calls with AAS health related questions so I feel comfortable saying that " in my experience, letro has had a greater negative effect on lipids then aromasin or Adex"

Its not always that it actually has a direct negative effect when used appropriate by not bottoming out ones estrogen but they seem to distinct trends when ones HDL and lipid are recovering from being messed up. More often then not ones HDL will struggle to recover at the normal rate when someone is taking letro vs taking aromasin. Now some of that may be due to letro being more likely to drop E2 hard and fast and aromasin not doing it to that degree but I have also seen blood work that included a normal range E2 with delayed HDL recovery.

More recently ( last week) a guy I know very well as he was part of my wedding party was running letro and 8 weeks post the exact same cycle he ran last year at this time his HDL was 22 as opposed to last year it was mid 40's. Very minimal diet changes or cardio etc but the major change was letro being used at 1/4 tab EOD vs aromasin 25g EOD. I know his HDL was down from his use of Tbol and var both times so i imagine the letro hindered the recovery of it. He is just one example I have of many that ive seen.

Letro has its place, its cheap, great at controling E2 when using higher doses, and will increase LH/FSH better then aromasin for fertility reasons when your off cycle. I do suggest aromasin over letro for most users though. Especially with ancillaries id suggest paying extra for legit tabs from the pharmacy and not liquid crap. Seen way too many fucked up labs for me to trust that.

Again, let me be clear. Im staying middle of the road here and trying to be objective. I would be happy to discuss AI's on another thread and proper use and potential sides and we can have a field day with it but i will go on record saying, that in my experience letro has the potential to be more detrimental to ones lipids on AAS cycle when compared to aromasin ( not sure why anyone would use adex lol) however I feel that its greatest negative effect is preventing/delaying the recovery of ones lipids.

 

[Mike Arnold]

It really pains me to see everyone ganging up on Mike Arnold here, especially when it's guys I also like. Can this thread just get locked?

No worries, brother. I appreciate it, though. The truth is that in every thread where there is an argument between me and someone else, there is usually a few people who will jump in and start trying to discredit me, even if it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. It happens every time. They stay quiet until they see an opportunity which makes them feel safe, and then they pounce. Kinglely, or whatever his name is, is a good example.

While it can get on my nerves, there are two things I always tell myself when I see the shit talk--because that's exactly what it is. One, it is always limited to just a few people, and its almost always the same ones over and over again. This brings me to number two, which is that these people all come from the same group (with rare exception). By that I mean that they are the ones who I had a previous fall-out with. They are the ones who used to actively seek out my advice, but they became resentful over something I said to them and now put up posts which completely contradict their "pre-fallout" attitude.

We've all had this happen to us in regular life--where we are on good terms with someone and all their words are complimentary, but as soon as things go south their praise turns to shit talk. This is just what people do...and we're not immune from it on the boards. Unfortunately, I can be somewhat brash, which occasionally results in hurt feelings, even when its not intended. That's where almost all of these people come from. The average board member, including those who post and those who just read, rarely want to get involved in this type of stuff, so they don't say anything publically. Like I told another guy from the board the other day, sometimes just a few people can seem like the whole board, especially when those few people put up page after page of posts talking trash, but it's important to see it for what it actually is--a few disgruntled, resentful people looking for an opportunity to knock you.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Mike you know I have disagreed with things you have said before in the past so I will say that I agree with the sentiment that letro is worse on lipids then aromasin and adex.

I cant begin to even think about how many labs and lipid panels I have looked at from AAS users over the years. I get PM'd daily, texts from people I know personally and phone calls with AAS health related questions so I feel comfortable saying that " in my experience, letro has had a greater negative effect on lipids then aromasin or Adex"

Its not always that it actually has a direct negative effect when used appropriate by not bottoming out ones estrogen but they seem to distinct trends when ones HDL and lipid are recovering from being messed up. More often then not ones HDL will struggle to recover at the normal rate when someone is taking letro vs taking aromasin. Now some of that may be due to letro being more likely to drop E2 hard and fast and aromasin not doing it to that degree but I have also seen blood work that included a normal range E2 with delayed HDL recovery.

More recently ( last week) a guy I know very well as he was part of my wedding party was running letro and 8 weeks post the exact same cycle he ran last year at this time his HDL was 22 as opposed to last year it was mid 40's. Very minimal diet changes or cardio etc but the major change was letro being used at 1/4 tab EOD vs aromasin 25g EOD. I know his HDL was down from his use of Tbol and var both times so i imagine the letro hindered the recovery of it. He is just one example I have of many that ive seen.

Letro has its place, its cheap, great at controling E2 when using higher doses, and will increase LH/FSH better then aromasin for fertility reasons when your off cycle. I do suggest aromasin over letro for most users though. Especially with ancillaries id suggest paying extra for legit tabs from the pharmacy and not liquid crap. Seen way too many fucked up labs for me to trust that.

Again, let me be clear. Im staying middle of the road here and trying to be objective. I would be happy to discuss AI's on another thread and proper use and potential sides and we can have a field day with it but i will go on record saying, that in my experience letro has the potential to be more detrimental to ones lipids on AAS cycle when compared to aromasin ( not sure why anyone would use adex lol) however I feel that its greatest negative effect is preventing/delaying the recovery of ones lipids.

What? That's nonsense. Unless you can post unquestionable clinical "proof" that you are right, I am going to ignore all anecdotal evidence and argue for 15 pages trying to convince everyone you're wrong.

OK, back to being serious. Of course you are right. This has been well known for a long time now. What I don't understand is why anyone would start a 15 page argument trying to prove you wrong when they know nothing about the subject and have nothing other than a few studies (contradictory ones at that) to base their opinion on?

Personally, I could never see myself launching a full-fledged "prove it" attack against someone for posting what you just posted, but it happened to me--and you can see it yourself in the A.I. link in this thread. The bottom line is this is not normal, and it makes me question not only the person's motives, but their physiological state as well. I am not saying someone who does this is crazy, but it does make me wonder what is going on. How could it not? It's one thing to present an opposing viewpoint, but it's quite another to do what I just described here, and it's happened more than one. The shitty part about it is that someone might actually believe it and then mess up their lipids even more.

 

[pesty4077]

No worries, brother. I appreciate it, though. The truth is that in every thread where there is an argument between me and someone else, there is usually a few people who will jump in and start trying to discredit me, even if it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. It happens every time. They stay quiet until they see an opportunity which makes them feel safe, and then they pounce. Kinglely, or whatever his name is, is a good example.

While it can get on my nerves, there are two things I always tell myself when I see the shit talk--because that's exactly what it is. One, it is always limited to just a few people, and its almost always the same ones over and over again. This brings me to number two, which is that these people all come from the same group (with rare exception). By that I mean that they are the ones who I had a previous fall-out with. They are the ones who used to actively seek out my advice, but they became resentful over something I said to them and now put up posts which completely contradict their "pre-fallout" attitude.

We've all had this happen to us in regular life--where we are on good terms with someone and all their words are complimentary, but as soon as things go south their praise turns to shit talk. This is just what people do...and we're not immune from it on the boards. Unfortunately, I can be somewhat brash, which occasionally results in hurt feelings, even when its not intended. That's where almost all of these people come from. The average board member, including those who post and those who just read, rarely want to get involved in this type of stuff, so they don't say anything publically. Like I told another guy from the board the other day, sometimes just a few people can seem like the whole board, especially when those few people put up page after page of posts talking trash, but it's important to see it for what it actually is--a few disgruntled, resentful people looking for an opportunity to knock you.

You are nothing but a hypocrite. Tell people how you call me names in PM for my above post where I said I want guys to look a certain way when they train me. If you read that above post, it wasn't putting you down at all, I said this is how I feel, even though I said I am not taking either side in your debate at the end. The bottom line is you can not take the fact people disagree with you on some things. Some of your articles are good, some I don't agree with. You don't like that, I don't what to tell you. Stop playing like you are innocent here. Not one time did I call you a name, I simply disagree, got it? Your true colors came out when you called me a piece of shit , unintelligent and put some MODs down with that in a PM. Show me ONE time I call you names. I didn't, did I??? As far as you wanted to be banned for saying that, I am not falling for your childish games. You are just making a fool of yourself. So much for your tact, your PMs show just the opposite.