Intuitive training vs structured program when gaining?

[bennym]

What are your opinions while trying to gain mass on training intuitively vs having a structured workout plan with pre determined exercises and rep ranges?

By intuitive training I mean having a structured split of what general muscle you are going to hit on each day, but once you get in the gym, you freestyle the exercise selection, rep ranges etc. Obviously still still pushing yourself close to, or at failure when freestyling. Hard work regardless.

I don't think you are not going to be able to track the progressive overload (accurately) per exercise when training intuitively since exercises would be placed in different orders when doing a freestyle routine, so sometimes you may do a certain exercise when fresh, and sometimes at the end of a workout, which would result in different reps etc due to fatigue/being fresh. If you are training balls to the wall/hard regardless, does tracking even matter?

I've seen many people on YT train this way. I don't think Lee Priest had a structured routine, Sam Sulek seems to freestyle the sessions apart from having a structured split, Calum Von Moger seemed to just pick what muscle he wants to hit on the spot (maybe by what feels recovered, what is lacking etc) etc etc. They all seem to just go to the gym, have a body part in mind they want to train that day, and just train fucking hard with what they want.

Any opinions on this approach compared to having structured eveything? Split is decided. Exercises are decided. Sets per exercise are decided. Rep range is decided. None of these variables change from workout to workout. They may be different for different body parts, like arms or legs having a larger rep range than chest for example, but everything based on a template.

Do you think that intuitive training would yield worse results, even if you train just as hard and make sure to push yourself. Without that you aren't going to grow regardless, that's a given.

 

[Golden]

Split is structured. Always have a plan of exercises in mind but if a machine is taken, I don’t sit around waiting for it. Just move on to something else. I understand if you’re style involves tracking progress every single workout ( more weight for a given exercise) then it would be a pain but pretty unavoidable sometimes if you train in a busy gym during peak times

 

[traininsane11]

Chances are both will work as in the grand scheme of things they’re the same thing I think the issue that clouds judgment for most

Tracking every variable so structured training down to the last tiny thing is for the most part preached by less genetically gifted and or aimed at less genetically gifted with very obvious compelling reasoning

Lesser structured is for the most part seen to be utilised by people who either aren’t overly into it all or genetic elites and the science crowd will say that way of training only works because genetic elite but honestly who knows

My opinion if the same level of effort is applied the results will be similar

 

[qbkilla]

Good thread. I think the level of flexibility you described could yield results, but a structured routine is better...I have tried both. The key is to be able to train at a time where you can get on equipment when you need it, or have a home gym....because unfortunately gyms are overcrowded now days. Hopefully Sega can come out with some cool new games to get the kiddies a new hobby lol.

 

[Splitzz]

John Meadows would train freestyle but still had a structured way about workouts, Mountain Dog Training. Didn’t know what exercises he was doing until he got to the gym, according to his videos.
I’m more structured but have workouts similar to his style thrown in to change things up once in a while

 

[hawkmoon]

Train with structure until it become intuitive.

 

[buck]

If a person has enough experience(likely years worth) and can take the emotion out of their traing so they do what is needed(even if they dislike it) and not what they like or feel like doing i think it can work fine. If people were able to do that we would all be in great shape and be rich.

 

[Acerola]

Honestly, I think the beauty is somewhere in the middle. Having and especially holding on to a "plan" too rigidly runs the risk of negating key signals, which could have equal merit whether pushing you to go harder OR bump the brakes.

In general, I think what separates advanced athletes in the weight room is their ability to know what's best from moment to moment and day to day and to be responsive enough to listen to the cues hidden in aches, pains, PRs, and missed opportunities.

Though personally there can be no question: I made my most massive gains by leaning much more heavily into intuition, time-under-tension, supersets, and very varied rep ranges depending on goals ie why not go super heavy FOR VOLUME?! But really experimentation is key. Splits and structure are very useful but its hard to negate the power and potency breakneck full body workouts executed on feels alone.

 

[qbkilla]

Honestly, I think the beauty is somewhere in the middle. Having and especially holding on to a "plan" too rigidly runs the risk of negating key signals, which could have equal merit whether pushing you to go harder OR bump the brakes.

In general, I think what separates advanced athletes in the weight room is their ability to know what's best from moment to moment and day to day and to be responsive enough to listen to the cues hidden in aches, pains, PRs, and missed opportunities.

Though personally there can be no question: I made my most massive gains by leaning much more heavily into intuition, time-under-tension, supersets, and very varied rep ranges depending on goals ie why not go super heavy FOR VOLUME?! But really experimentation is key. Splits and structure are very useful but its hard to negate the power and potency breakneck full body workouts executed on feels alone.

This is a good point. I've found though at times my intuition can be wrong. A day last week I got horrible sleep, stressful day, had to rush to the gym where I typically prefer to relax before training. It was leg day...I thought about swapping leg day for arms day which was tomorrow, and save legs for the following day...a simple switch that wouldn't affect my programming just give me a less stressful workout on a bad day. I decided forget it...I was going to go in and hit legs come hell or high water. Went in and added weight /reps to squat, rdl, hack and leg curl...was a great session. Have had this happen in the past too. But I see your side too as some flexibility can also benefit...sometimes those asynchronous splits can help because chest day isn't always locked in...so if something comes up Monday..can just hit it tue without having to throw off the weekly schedule.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

The vast majority of people need structure, a set split, a set lineup of exercise, and to progressively overload them. And I’m saying that because the vast majority of people can’t intuitively figure out a way to add stimulus and progress, somehow, over weeks, months, and years. There’s a reason why the guy u see at the gym benching 225 now is still benching 225 next year. But as you become more and more advanced, and take that runway longer and longer, you get to a point where you can somewhat do all of this without a notebook, without really focusing on following the plan to the T.

You do notice that there’s a certain type of athlete, the genetic freak, that can get away with no plan and stillll progress easily. In my head, these dudes have like a “lower threshold” for lack of a better term, where they can find this stimulus and sliiightly push it without much focus and/or knowing where the fuck it is lol they bench 225, they go in next week, barely paying attention and 225 is just too easy, so they bench 245, and so on, and so goes their easy life again, that is maybe the 1% of us. The rest of us cannnottt do that and we require a plan or at least a plan for yearssss until we are so in the groove and knowledgable that we can just feel it out.

 

[Klax]

I have a "plan" that I go off of, but I always modify based on how I'm feeling. IMO, there's no point in going through the motions when you know you're not getting the stimulus you need, just to check the box. My split stays fairly consistent regarding how I rotate muscle groups, but the specific stimuli on those days will vary. I'm a believer of the philosophy that states - Stimulate the muscle for growth, then eat and recover appropriately to support that growth.

 

[Trenbolonely]

I prefer clear structure, and an organized lifting log so that I can make sure that I am making progress with lifts, and can see what kind of volume/frequency and intensity works. Then using this, intuitively adjusting based on results or feedback from the body. It makes it very easy to see if I need to moderate something, or if more needs to be added, whether it’s food or whatever . I’ve had splits where I see some body parts didnt respond very well, and other ones where the same parts grew on the basis of microcycle to microcycle. It helps to have clear data and a structure so I can avoid doing things that didn’t work as well in the past. If I notice some kind of big regression, ok maybe I will remove a set and thats not intuitive— it’s based on results from the program. But if it feels like my muscle is going to get a strain then sure maybe the weight needs to go down, or I will skip a movement that might be risky which is intuitive but 90+% of the time it’s just a matter of adding reps or weight every microcycle. It’s the same with joints— if they are getting beat up due to heavy loads, then Im going to reduce the load and increase reps and tempo, which is intuitive but then still stick with the structure and try to overload. Theres definitely some leeway for intuition but I don’t think I’m advanced, smart enough, or genetically gifted enough to rely on my intuition.

I think a lot of feelings of tiredness and fatigue is fake, it’s just mental, so if I have numbers to beat i will push to beat them instead of turning down the intensity because of “feeling” some sort of way. If I just used intuition I bet my performance would suffer because I might not do as much as what is possible.

 

[kadafi2]

I'm definitely in favor of training according to a plan. It's easier to track progress in specific exercises, and it's easier to "control" progressive overload. I also think it's easier when the body "gets to know" a given exercise and type of movement, which makes it feel better when performed regularly. But that's a subjective feeling.

However, feeling whether a muscle has received the right stimulus is another matter entirely. Drop sets, rest pauses, and other methods for increasing intensity—these are where intuition comes in. When you feel the muscle has done its job for the day, you're done. If not, you can increase the intensity using various methods based on intuition.

If I were to change exercises intuitively, I would prefer the more isolated ones, while leaving the "base" ones in the plan for a longer period to maximize their potential. That's how I see it.

Oh, and one more thing: sometimes the exercises we don't like are the ones that give us the most, so I like to have a routine and I know I have to do them because that's what the plan says.

 

[Sterops]

I think that really depends on which point you’re at and how well you’re able to push yourself. Intuition is something you can master after years and years of training when you know what to feel and how far to go, but still I’d prefer structure for myself personally.

 

[chooch]

I’ve always gone the intuitive route and listened to my body. Some days that random ache just tells me to do things different today. Knock on wood, at 50 years old and 30 training, I’ve never suffered any injury due to training. Coincidence? Maybe. I’ll never know for sure so I’m just gonna go ahead and take credit for being smart and avoiding injuries

 

[TedDansen]

It probably depends on what your goal is, but I can think of a couple examples where the intuitive approach would end up backfiring. If your athlete is in contest prep and you're using gym performance to dictate when they need a refeed or when to increase the dose, you would need to rely on the athlete's subjective feedback. When you're cutting, that can be very error-prone - sometimes the weights just feel heavy and you feel like you're dragging through the workout, but if you look at the numbers afterwards, everything was just fine. I'd rather be looking at the same lifts in the same order every week so we have hard data when a drop in performance is actually happening.

The same thing can happen in the off-season - you think all your workouts are great and you're crushing it every time, but if you had been tracking consistently you would see that you had plateaued 2 months ago and you really need to make some adjustments.

The structure and tracking can take a lot of the fun out of it for some people so that has to be taken into account.

 

[Anabolix8]

Intuitive training works if you’ve already built the skill to judge volume, effort and recovery accurately. Most advanced lifters who “freestyle” are still progressing something, even if it’s not written down.

For gaining, progression still matters. If loads, reps or total volume aren’t trending up over time, effort alone won’t drive growth.

Best middle ground in my opinion: keep compounds structured and progressive, allow accessories to be more intuitive. That gives you measurable overload without feeling boxed in.

Pure chaos is inferior. Pure rigidity isn’t necessary either.

What are your opinions while trying to gain mass on training intuitively vs having a structured workout plan with pre determined exercises and rep ranges?

By intuitive training I mean having a structured split of what general muscle you are going to hit on each day, but once you get in the gym, you freestyle the exercise selection, rep ranges etc. Obviously still still pushing yourself close to, or at failure when freestyling. Hard work regardless.

I don't think you are not going to be able to track the progressive overload (accurately) per exercise when training intuitively since exercises would be placed in different orders when doing a freestyle routine, so sometimes you may do a certain exercise when fresh, and sometimes at the end of a workout, which would result in different reps etc due to fatigue/being fresh. If you are training balls to the wall/hard regardless, does tracking even matter?

I've seen many people on YT train this way. I don't think Lee Priest had a structured routine, Sam Sulek seems to freestyle the sessions apart from having a structured split, Calum Von Moger seemed to just pick what muscle he wants to hit on the spot (maybe by what feels recovered, what is lacking etc) etc etc. They all seem to just go to the gym, have a body part in mind they want to train that day, and just train fucking hard with what they want.

Any opinions on this approach compared to having structured eveything? Split is decided. Exercises are decided. Sets per exercise are decided. Rep range is decided. None of these variables change from workout to workout. They may be different for different body parts, like arms or legs having a larger rep range than chest for example, but everything based on a template.

Do you think that intuitive training would yield worse results, even if you train just as hard and make sure to push yourself. Without that you aren't going to grow regardless, that's a given.

 

[buck]

It would seem to me the toughest part of intuitive traing would be deciding what needed to be worked today. Load and volume would be figured out as the workout progresses.

 

[Flocci]

I prefer to have a set split and exercise selection but autoregulating the set volume and rep ranges depending on recovery and biofeedback could work out well imo.

 

[GroundFloor]

I actually always do both. Split stays constant, but I track not just exercises but the position that I have them in during a training session.

So if I hit a leg press as my 2nd exercise in my leg day, next week maybe that same leg press is taken and I have to use hack squat as my 2nd exercise. I now established baselines for both of those exercises in the 2nd position.

Next time I get access to that leg press as my 2nd exercise again, I now know ball park what I need to hit reps and weight wise to progress. I may not be able to get to that exercise in the 2nd position again for 3+ weeks (one time it was 10 weeks lol). That is OK though because if I’m truly making progress muscle gain wise I should be able to come back to that exercise in that same position again and do more reps or weight.

This obviously isn’t perfect because not all exercises and their positions in your training are created equal from a fatigue standpoint, but progress is measured over months or even years.

As long as you are trending up in weight and reps over months for exercises in certain positions, it’s a great lead measure to progress provided you are eating enough and supplementation is adequate.

Now, I can be autonomous and flexible (not stress over certain exercises being taken up by people who just sit and text on the machine lol) and still track progress in an almost objective manner over time.

Ive been doing this now for about 5 years and have 0 anxiety about machines being used in a busier gym.