is it bad to ask this

[Johnny Smiles]

WOW.

bunch of funny stuff in this thread. LMAO at alot of it.
so you wanna grow but don't want to increase drugs? lol.
if you up calories too much without gear you start to put on fat. so you MUST eventually up doses to keep growing. there is no other way.
FOOD is not most anabolic thing. FOOD and DRUGS are most anabolic thing. the combonation of the TWO is what builds big physiques not one or the other.
and this whole "looking for a system" thing well, how bout eat when hungry? so as you get more lean muscle on you it will up your metabolism making you eat more when you hit a plateau up drugs and you will gain some muscle and be hungrier when you hit a plateau up dose again etc etc etc until you are 250lbs.
its about progression in strenght/drugs/food (not necassarily in that order)
and 8 weeks on and then 4 weeks off sounds awful to me. 8 weeks is NOT long to be on and 4 weeks is NOT a long break at all. sounds like a terrible yo yo way of doing things.
to each their own.
hire a trainer. i recommend phil.
-JS

 

[samiam]

its not about me

... a hypothetical drug cycle system which is so efficient ....

and for god sake... concerntrate on the drug cycle system

so you wanna grow but don't want to increase drugs? lol.
-JS

 

[dr intensity]

my point here is to set up a hypothetical drug cycle system which is so efficient that the need to up the dose is minimized as possible.


because there is a need for us bodybuilder, to device an idea or a plan where we can make max use of the lowest = safest amount of dose possible.

see we as bodybuilders have 2 tasks
1. gain muscle while on cycle
2. to mentain muscle while off cycle


the minimal dose

lets discuss strategies bout how in which way can we use the minmal dose.
how long can we use it
how many times can we use it

 

[dr intensity]

bunch of funny stuff in this thread. LMAO at alot of it.
so you wanna grow but don't want to increase drugs? lol.
if you up calories too much without gear you start to put on fat. so you MUST eventually up doses to keep growing. there is no other way.
FOOD is not most anabolic thing. FOOD and DRUGS are most anabolic thing. the combonation of the TWO is what builds big physiques not one or the other.
and this whole "looking for a system" thing well, how bout eat when hungry? so as you get more lean muscle on you it will up your metabolism making you eat more when you hit a plateau up drugs and you will gain some muscle and be hungrier when you hit a plateau up dose again etc etc etc until you are 250lbs.
its about progression in strenght/drugs/food (not necassarily in that order)
and 8 weeks on and then 4 weeks off sounds awful to me. 8 weeks is NOT long to be on and 4 weeks is NOT a long break at all. sounds like a terrible yo yo way of doing things.
to each their own.
hire a trainer. i recommend phil.
-JS

yeah wanna grow....but the need to increase the dosage needs to be minimized.

i dont want go directly from 500 to 750 to 1500 to 2250mg in the same year.

 

[Johnny Smiles]

If you think drugs are the answer and not food then you need to spend a lot more time searching this board.

Do you honestly think that Jay or Kai or Ronnie could maintain their size or continue to grow eating less and drugging more. Food is the most anabolic thing you can put in your body.

it takes BOTH. why wouldn't it? its perfect logic.
so you think jay and ronnie never went above 500mg of test but kept upping food and now they are beasts on 500mg? LOL.

food and anabolics are synergistic. they work GREAT together and work ok alone. that is elementary stuff right there. it takes both to keep growing
-JS

 

[dr intensity]

oh man that was hilarious,rofl. lol.lmao

if you really wanna contribute then do so... there is no point being...so humerous....please
thanks

 

[Johnny Smiles]

yeah wanna grow....but the need to increase the dosage needs to be minimized.

i dont want go directly from 500 to 750 to 1500 to 2250mg in the same year.

you might have to tho.
all you can do is up food and/or up dose at plateaus. imo if you up dose then food will go up too and you will be growing again.
i am afraid you will never find this "lowest" dose possible and get to 250lbs. many factors come in but the two major ones are food intake and drugs. go as far as you can on 500mgs then up dose and go as far as you can at that dose and etc etc thats the only way to find out.

the "system" i use is perfect imo. its based on reaching plateaus and adjusting things to break thru those plateaus. there are MANY ways to do that.
good luck bro! glad you want to use lowest dose possible thats what it should be about.

guess what i am trying to say is you might not be able to use what you call low dose and reach 250lbs
-JS

 

[samiam]

oh man that was hilarious,rofl. lol.lmao

if you really wanna contribute then do so... there is no point being...so humerous....please
thanks

um, i made a very serious suggestion on my first post... as have others.
they have been ignored.

Good luck with your quest.
later.

 

[dr intensity]

bunch of funny stuff in this thread. LMAO at alot of it.
so you wanna grow but don't want to increase drugs? lol.
if you up calories too much without gear you start to put on fat. so you MUST eventually up doses to keep growing. there is no other way.
FOOD is not most anabolic thing. FOOD and DRUGS are most anabolic thing. the combonation of the TWO is what builds big physiques not one or the other.
and this whole "looking for a system" thing well, how bout eat when hungry? so as you get more lean muscle on you it will up your metabolism making you eat more when you hit a plateau up drugs and you will gain some muscle and be hungrier when you hit a plateau up dose again etc etc etc until you are 250lbs.
its about progression in strenght/drugs/food (not necassarily in that order)
and 8 weeks on and then 4 weeks off sounds awful to me. 8 weeks is NOT long to be on and 4 weeks is NOT a long break at all. sounds like a terrible yo yo way of doing things.
to each their own.
hire a trainer. i recommend phil.
-JS

ok i am guessing you did it with campartively lesser dosages than the ones we hear.... fine...now can you speak of an yearly drug cycle plan...with minimal chances of increasing dosages and yet gaining a good amount of muscle to be proud off...

 

[dr intensity]

um, i made a very serious suggestion on my first post... as have others.
they have been ignored.

Good luck with your quest.
later.

thanks and no hard feelings bro

 

[MR. BMJ]

I think the overall message being lost here is that people want results NOW. The rate at which muscle accumulates is not the same for everybody. To want a 20-lb gain of LBM in a single year for a NON-NEWBIE TRAINER, is going to be tough, no matter what you do.

In the original post, you asked what the trainee should have done....I look at it like this:

A.) The initial weight he gained was newbie weight gain that all of us gain when first starting out.

B.) How old is this person?

C.) After the initial "newbie weight gain," it gets MUCH harder year after year to add NEW muscle mass, this is especially true for natty lifters. Simply, the answer to your question at the point he was weighing 180-lbs (non-AAS using), would be......TIME! As a natty, wanting to gain weight, it takes a LONG 'TIME' to gain extra LBM each year, unless you are genetically gifted, but even then, there are realistic goals that should be set in place. He wasn't going to see the same weight gain he initially did the first few years. Let's say his diet was maxed-out to it's best ability.....high protein, calories, carbs and fats + tweaking it upwards as new SLOW mass is gained, the only other thing he would be able to do is continue to progress in his weight lifting poundages + TIME. In other words, once diet is maxed, it is just a matter of beating the log book each workout + TIME.

D.) As far as dosing, this will be different with everybody. Some guys grow like weeds on 250-500mg/wk, while others need a gram to get the same results....and then continue to progressively increase "AS NEEDED."

E.) There is NO set mathematical equation to say, "Okay, I have maxed-out at 500mg/wk, I can now go to 600.97853mg for each week, then to, etc, etc, etc. Likewise, There is never going to be a mathematical equation, universal for everybody, to say okay, in 4 weeks, I should increase my dosage to "this amount" and then in another "blank weeks," I will need to increase again. There is never going to be a perfect case scenario to work this way, or in a cookie-cutter fashion. You increase dosages as needed, and how much that is, is anybody's guess. The higher you go, we can 'assume' higher gains. You will get 1,000 different views on how much a dosage should be increased, and that really comes down to field experience and from our own experiences, which will vary across the board. We see incremental increases of 50-100-125-250mg doses because it is easier to increase due to the concentration of most injections (1/4, 1/2, 3/4, 1cc)....rather than say 5/8, or 2/3, or 1/3, or 1/8, or 36mg or 78mg, or 46mg, etc, etc.).

F.) For every perfect plan set in place by any GURU out there, there will always be multiple/dozens that are different and will work for others. How one decides to increase dosing progressively will never be cookie cutter.


Now to answer your question....."IMO," if your diet and training are maxed-out.....and dosing becomes the next step of the equation to optimize....it really depends on how "fast" the person wants to gain muscle because if everything is maxed out, and he wants larger muscle increases quickly, he is going to need to couple that with larger increases, and tolerate any sides (which is different for every7body). If he is willing to put in the time, he can progress dosing much slower.

This is just in terms of AAS while diet and training are at their optimal states. This does not address other "anabolic" compounds of use like HGH, which also play a factor.


***None of what I wrote above is a recommendation.


BMJ

 

[samiam]

I think the overall message being lost here is that people want results NOW. The rate at which muscle accumulates is not the same for everybody. To want a 20-lb gain of LBM in a single year for a NON-NEWBIE TRAINER, is going to be tough, no matter what you do.

In the original post, you asked what the trainee should have done....I look at it like this:

A.) The initial weight he gained was newbie weight gain that all of us gain when first starting out.

B.) How old is this person?

C.) After the initial "newbie weight gain," it gets MUCH harder year after year to add NEW muscle mass, this is especially true for natty lifters. Simply, the answer to your question at the point he was weighing 180-lbs (non-AAS using), would be......TIME! As a natty, wanting to gain weight, it takes a LONG 'TIME' to gain extra LBM each year, unless you are genetically gifted, but even then, there are realistic goals that should be set in place. He wasn't going to see the same weight gain he initially did the first few years. Let's say his diet was maxed-out to it's best ability.....high protein, calories, carbs and fats + tweaking it upwards as new SLOW mass is gained, the only other thing he would be able to do is continue to progress in his weight lifting poundages + TIME. In other words, once diet is maxed, it is just a matter of beating the log book each workout + TIME.

D.) As far as dosing, this will be different with everybody. Some guys grow like weeds on 250-500mg/wk, while others need a gram to get the same results....and then continue to progressively increase "AS NEEDED."

E.) There is NO set mathematical equation to say, "Okay, I have maxed-out at 500mg/wk, I can now go to 600.97853mg for each week, then to, etc, etc, etc. Likewise, There is never going to be a mathematical equation, universal for everybody, to say okay, in 4 weeks, I should increase my dosage to "this amount" and then in another "blank weeks," I will need to increase again. There is never going to be a perfect case scenario to work this way, or in a cookie-cutter fashion. You increase dosages as needed, and how much that is, is anybody's guess. The higher you go, we can 'assume' higher gains. You will get 1,000 different views on how much a dosage should be increased, and that really comes down to field experience and from our own experiences, which will vary across the board. We see incremental increases of 50-100-125-250mg doses because it is easier to increase due to the concentration of most injections (1/4, 1/2, 3/4, 1cc)....rather than say 5/8, or 2/3, or 1/3, or 1/8, or 36mg or 78mg, or 46mg, etc, etc.).

F.) For every perfect plan set in place by any GURU out there, there will always be multiple/dozens that are different and will work for others. How one decides to increase dosing progressively will never be cookie cutter.


Now to answer your question....."IMO," if your diet and training are maxed-out.....and dosing becomes the next step of the equation to optimize....it really depends on how "fast" the person wants to gain muscle because if everything is maxed out, and he wants larger muscle increases quickly, he is going to need to couple that with larger increases, and tolerate any sides (which is different for every7body). If he is willing to put in the time, he can progress dosing much slower.

This is just in terms of AAS while diet and training are at their optimal states. This does not address other "anabolic" compounds of use like HGH, which also play a factor.


***None of what I wrote above is a recommendation.


BMJ

Right and what works one time might not work the next... or the other way around too...

Boils down to you can't plan it out so far in advance. You have to learn to watch and adapt as your body changes. Thats where a good trainer like Phil comes into play. Someone who is unbiased and knows what they are looking at that can make adjustments for you.

 

[d24]

I understand your request, but it's too subjective to live by. My advice is to break your day by percentages...like so:

**15 hours of nutrition (ie a meal every 3-4 hours plus atleast a gallon of water throughout) (63%)

**8 hours of sleep (33%)

**1 hour (Train) (4%)


My point is that growth will not fall in place if you don't concentrate on the largest percentages. Don't get me wrong here. Even on the lowest percentages, you need to go all out (training). If you plateau, then I would venture to say you are burning more calories due to the increased muscle mass. So, the perception of getting "fat" is skewed if you increase your macros.

As for drugs, ANYONE can grow on a moderate cycle without increasing to crazy amounts. From my perspective, I think time OFF is important to prevent increasing your dosages. My advice is to stay consistant and look at the more important things that cause a plateau. More than likely, there is something wrong with what your doing "63%" of the time in your daily routine.

 

[Johnny Smiles]

Right and what works one time might not work the next... or the other way around too...

Boils down to you can't plan it out so far in advance. You have to learn to watch and adapt as your body changes. Thats where a good trainer like Phil comes into play. Someone who is unbiased and knows what they are looking at that can make adjustments for you.

yup. change things as you hit a plateau. who knows when that plateau will be.....
-JS

 

[Johnny Smiles]

I understand your request, but it's too subjective to live by. My advice is to break your day by percentages...like so:

**15 hours of nutrition (ie a meal every 3-4 hours plus atleast a gallon of water throughout) (63%)

**8 hours of sleep (33%)

**1 hour (Train) (4%)

hormones(100%)


My point is that growth will not fall in place if you don't concentrate on the largest percentages. Don't get me wrong here. Even on the lowest percentages, you need to go all out (training). If you plateau, then I would venture to say you are burning more calories due to the increased muscle mass. So, the perception of getting "fat" is skewed if you increase your macros.

As for drugs, ANYONE can grow on a moderate cycle without increasing to crazy amounts. From my perspective, I think time OFF is important to prevent increasing your dosages. My advice is to stay consistant and look at the more important things that cause a plateau. More than likely, there is something wrong with what your doing "63%" of the time in your daily routine.

add hormones to that list since that is a constant it must be pretty important since its happening 100% of the time all the time. so its prolly gonna have the most influence on your goals.
-JS

 

[howcome]

Dude... what is with you and your page-long, drawn out, extremely over-complicated, mind-numbing posts and questions?!?
I remember you from another thread a few monthes ago, only because you had the same huge page long mumbo jumbo crap and no one would even answer you because it was so ridicules!

Haha and I remember you, They laughed you off outlaw. Why you turn around and do the same to another. 28 years of lifting has taught me that what works for joe blow or the ifbb pro wont necessarily work for me with gear diet or lifting. Seems on every board you go to there are so called experts. I would never claim to be an expert on any level but I know what works for my body.

 

[d24]

You control hormones by injection less than 1 % of your day. You're missing my point.

 

[Johnny Smiles]

You control hormones by injection less than 1 % of your day. You're missing my point.

but that one injection (if its a long ester) will be having its effects in your system CONSTANTLY.
i see your point. i think you missed my point.
-JS

 

[d24]

I see your point, but I'm talking about something tangible. Hormones are what I consider behind the scenes after that injection.

Also, the ester (long or short) would rarely cause you to inject multiple times a day. Different story with peptides though.

 

[Johnny Smiles]

I see your point, but I'm talking about something tangible. Hormones are what I consider behind the scenes after that injection.

Also, the ester (long or short) would rarely cause you to inject multiple times a day. Different story with peptides though.

you are still missing my point.
hormones are working in your system 100% of the time all of the time. you might inject once but they are working all of the time. you might sleep severl hours a day might eat a few times a day but you are ALWAYS influenced by hormones every second every minute every hour of everyday. they CERTAINLY are not behind the scene. they practically ARE the scene.
-JS