Is it possible that steroids increase baseline muscle & strength separate from training? 🧐

marssel · Feb 21, 2023

BLang said:
This study gets referred to over and over, yet for some reason nobody seems to notice that some, most, or all of the supposed "muscle gain" in this study could have simply come from glycogen storage.

The vast majority of guys who jump on TRT or their first cycle put on 4-10 pounds of glycogen within a couple of weeks, and everyone tells them to calm down, it's not actual tissue.

But a study uses underwater weighing and gives people 600mg of test a week and nobody bats an eyelash at a sudden increase in FFM.

Good point gylcogen or even estrogen induced edema would be easy at 600 mgs fuck I’m not even on 600 mgs rn

NeveReveN · Feb 22, 2023

They have been prescribing steroids to aids victims for many years to help them gain and retain muscle mass, no weight training needed. They give steroids to starvation victims to help regain muscle mass, no weight training needed. They give steroids to horses and cows and dogs to increase muscle mass, no weight training needed.

qbkilla · Feb 22, 2023

NeveReveN said:
They have been prescribing steroids to aids victims for many years to help them gain and retain muscle mass, no weight training needed. They give steroids to starvation victims to help regain muscle mass, no weight training needed. They give steroids to horses and cows and dogs to increase muscle mass, no weight training needed.

This is a good point. I believe in pretty high dosages too isn't it like over 100 mg drol? Then you see people online microdosing 10 mg test or tren. I also think when they give cattle tren it's with estrogen? Yet so many abuse anti e and end up crashing their own

marssel · Feb 23, 2023

NeveReveN said:
They have been prescribing steroids to aids victims for many years to help them gain and retain muscle mass, no weight training needed. They give steroids to starvation victims to help regain muscle mass, no weight training needed. They give steroids to horses and cows and dogs to increase muscle mass, no weight training needed.

Ok so in feed lot animals it’s test and estrogen to add weight and fatten the cows so not good link there. Never heard of it’s use in starvation issues and I’ve been to Africa. Now burn victims and AIDS patients is correct but the applications are to prevent muscle wasting not bulking on muscle yes a tin bit of hypertrophy may occur but it’s not muscle growth in the sense we talk about. Also roids without exercise skyrockets the negative sides bc larger amounts of hormones and their breakdowns DHT/estrogens etc. are higher AND go into organs and such in higher concentrations

Cerberus777 · Feb 25, 2023

There was a strain of C that went around that didn't do anything but cause a high fever. Myself and a freinds broth got it. We both lost about 40lbs. He didn't have 40lbs to loose. He was given drol to build back up muscles to walk again. Wish I got that lol.

OuchThatHurts · Feb 25, 2023

qbkilla said:
Not disagreeing I'm sure they increase lbm by some amount without any work.

But if we take 3 identical triplets... obviously we can't but if we did..

1 takes 500 mg never trains
2 takes nothing but lifts under guidance of a reputable coach
3. 500 mg + coach

3 will gain the most, then 2, then 1 in my opinion

The amount of % of lbm gain by 3 will exceed the % gained by both 1 and 2 in the long term IMO

Would you agree on this? 1 will gain a few lbs initially, 2 will make gains then stall, 3 will make the greatest gains and they will continue longer before stalling.

Agreed.

Since there is no muscular training in Person 1, the LBM increase in size will be due to increased glycogen uptake and possibly some hypertrophy. And the lipolytic and/or thermogenic action of the compound will reduce adipose tissue. But they very likely won't be jacked.

Persons 2 and 3 are stimulating skeletal muscular growth through progressive train and will always out gain Person 1.

It wasn't my intention to call you out at all. I just jumped in to point out that there is now conclusive data on androgens (TRT) resulting in bigger and leaner dudes

Then again, I have a couple pals that don't lift or take PEDs and they're jacked and ripped.

qbkilla · Feb 25, 2023

OuchThatHurts said:
Agreed. Since there is no muscular training in Person 1, the LBM increase in size will be due to increased glycogen uptake and possibly some hypertrophy. And the lipolytic and/or thermogenic action of the compound will reduce adipose tissue. But they very likely won't be jacked.

Persons 2 and 3 are stimulating skeletal muscular growth through progressive train and will always out gain Person 1.

It wasn't my intention to call you out at all. I just jumped in to point out that there is now conclusive data on androgens (TRT) resulting in bigger and leaner dudes

Then again, I have a couple pals that don't lift or take PEDs and they're jacked and ripped.

Pretty much agree with all. I definitely think there is a synergy between AAS, diet, training more than 1+1+1=3. I'm of the opinion that the training stimulus is most important, then diet and AAS.

I personally think training is most important. Many people can have the perfect diet but not train intense enough, or just move weight not stimulation of the target muscles .

I think diet is pretty simple, as long as the basics are in place (calories, protein, decent food choices). Now if someone doesn't even have a basic understanding of nutrition , then this doesn't apply.

Then AAS, it depends a great deal on individual response. But I think that people that initially respond to training (when they start out natural) are probably going to be the same ones that also get a good response to AAS.

And those who do everything right natural but still don't look good, will have a lesser response to AAS than average just like they did training.

Hope I explained that so makes sense, got a little off topic lol.

marssel · Feb 26, 2023

Cerberus777 said:
There was a strain of C that went around that didn't do anything but cause a high fever. Myself and a freinds broth got it. We both lost about 40lbs. He didn't have 40lbs to loose. He was given drol to build back up muscles to walk again. Wish I got that lol.

American pharma drol or compounded powder capsules?

Cerberus777 · Feb 26, 2023

marssel said:
American pharma drol or compounded powder capsules?

I'd have to re read his paperwork. He was given it for 2 weeks in the hospital and a script for more. Pretty sure it was pharma. I refused to go to the hospital, wish I didn't.

marssel · Feb 26, 2023

Cerberus777 said:
I'd have to re read his paperwork. He was given it for 2 weeks in the hospital and a script for more. Pretty sure it was pharma. I refused to go to the hospital, wish I didn't.

Man I’d like to see pics of American Anadrol last I saw was the discontinued Syntex back in 2002 and that bottle was crazy old even then

Cerberus777 · Feb 27, 2023

marssel said:
Man I’d like to see pics of American Anadrol last I saw was the discontinued Syntex back in 2002 and that bottle was crazy old even then

I never saw it. Just saw him when my friend (his brother,) said the docs have him on drol. I just read his med docs.

Type-IIx · Feb 27, 2023

Is there any question that they don't? Bhasin's 1996 & 2001 studies were all the buzz over two decades ago because they demonstrated that they do profoundly.

alfresco · Feb 27, 2023

Type-IIx said:
Is there any question that they don't? Bhasin's 1996 & 2001 studies were all the buzz over two decades ago because they demonstrated that they do profoundly.

600mg ew?

stackdizzy · Feb 27, 2023

Wasn't there a study.about anemic girls running up to 150mgs a day Anadrol for months on end with no problems? I have to look.

qbkilla · Feb 27, 2023

stackdizzy said:
Wasn't there a study.about anemic girls running up to 150mgs a day Anadrol for months on end with no problems? I have to look.

Love to see it if there was.

Type-IIx · Mar 1, 2023

stackdizzy said:
Wasn't there a study.about anemic girls running up to 150mgs a day Anadrol for months on end with no problems? I have to look.

No, that's an inaccurate recollection.

In a double-blinded randomized-controlled trial, 50 mg vs. 100 mg vs. 150 mg were trailled for oxymetholone daily in men & women with HIV wasting. The results showed that after 16 weeks, 27% (n=8) of the 100 mg group vs. 35% (n=11) of the 150 mg group saw ALT, AST, or GGT elevated by >5-fold (in HIV wasting patients). This is classified as grade 3/4 liver toxicity. Only 8% of patients at 50 mg daily experiencing grade 3/4 liver toxicity.

So while only a minority suffered grade 3/4 liver toxicity at even 150 mg daily, it's not accurate to conclude that this is safe practice.

In cases of anemia caused by deficient red cell production, the usual effective dose is 1 to 2 mg/kg per day...individualized...for 3 to 6 months. Note that an anemic child is qualitatively different from an Open category bodybuilder.

stackdizzy · Mar 1, 2023

It could be but let me look for the study.i swear I read something like that years ago but yes I could be wrong. I forgot about this I will look. But yours is interesting as well

Type-IIx said:
No, that's an inaccurate recollection.

In a double-blinded randomized-controlled trial, 50 mg vs. 100 mg vs. 150 mg were trailled for oxymetholone daily in men & women with HIV wasting. The results showed that after 16 weeks, 27% (n=8) of the 100 mg group vs. 35% (n=11) of the 150 mg group saw ALT, AST, or GGT elevated by >5-fold (in HIV wasting patients). This is classified as grade 3/4 liver toxicity. Only 8% of patients at 50 mg daily experiencing grade 3/4 liver toxicity.

So while only a minority suffered grade 3/4 liver toxicity at even 150 mg daily, it's not accurate to conclude that this is safe practice.

In cases of anemia caused by deficient red cell production, the usual effective dose is 1 to 2 mg/kg per day...individualized...for 3 to 6 months. Note that an anemic child is qualitatively different from an Open category bodybuilder.

marssel · Mar 1, 2023

Type-IIx said:
No, that's an inaccurate recollection.

In a double-blinded randomized-controlled trial, 50 mg vs. 100 mg vs. 150 mg were trailled for oxymetholone daily in men & women with HIV wasting. The results showed that after 16 weeks, 27% (n=8) of the 100 mg group vs. 35% (n=11) of the 150 mg group saw ALT, AST, or GGT elevated by >5-fold (in HIV wasting patients). This is classified as grade 3/4 liver toxicity. Only 8% of patients at 50 mg daily experiencing grade 3/4 liver toxicity.

So while only a minority suffered grade 3/4 liver toxicity at even 150 mg daily, it's not accurate to conclude that this is safe practice.

In cases of anemia caused by deficient red cell production, the usual effective dose is 1 to 2 mg/kg per day...individualized...for 3 to 6 months. Note that an anemic child is qualitatively different from an Open category bodybuilder.

That sounds like trolling Anadrol for regular chics in that dosage is absurd