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Is it really cheating?????? Your Thoughts

They could have been tampered with tho... I wouldnt really believe that

Then so could any sample. If tampering is possible then no result is to be trusted, ever. The scientist really makes a convincing argument. The lab doesn't know who a specific sample belongs to. It was a reporter who linked Lance to the sample numbers.
 
Perhaps you mean: sportsscientists.com
(interesting website)

And do you mean VO2max, not wattage?

At any rate, after some research (now),
I was wrong on both accounts. He has been
eclipsed. My apologies. Guess I need get
out more often. :rolleyes:
Sorry, it was this website and article. Sportsscientists.com is an interesting website and they had linked to this interview.
**broken link removed**

Here's the part:
Ed Coyle publishes a study on Armstrong

AS: Actually, that's the perfect segue for us to start talking about Ed Coyle a little bit. Ed Coyle wrote a study in 2005 about the work he did with Armstrong from '92 to '99, where he claimed that he was able to improve his watts per kilo 18%. Armstrong himself holds this study up as proof that he didn't need dope to win the Tour. There were two ways Coyle went about it. One, Armstrong's efficiency improved, and two, his weight was reduced. How did you become aware of this paper?

MA: I guess I need to put it in a little bit of context. Muscle efficiency is sort of like a holy grail in physiology. To put it in context, a 1% improvement in efficiency has been calculated with various modeling techniques to give you about a one minute improvement in a 40k time trial. So an 8% improvement in efficiency is simply unheard of. It has never been measured before, and so naturally, when Ed Coyle published a paper reporting that, there was an enormous amount of interest. Not just in the lay media, but in scientific circles as well, because lots and lots of people have tried to see if they could change cycling efficiency with different training protocols, it has never been found to change.

And so when you report that not only has it changed, it changed by 8%, then obviously that seems a very unusual finding. As scientists, the first thing you want to do is say, "I want to read the paper, I want to satisfy myself with the methodology that he used, because, gee, this seems like a strange result."

AS: Let's just define the term real quickly, cycling efficiency. The idea is that if you're riding at 400 watts, your body is actually producing much more energy than that, and the efficiency is the percentage of cycling power vs. total power?

MA: Yeah, in very simple terms, it's how much of the energy production in your muscles actually go into the pedals and gives you propulsive force.

AS: And overall energy is measured by how much oxygen you're burning?

MA: Yeah, it's a laboratory test where the subject is put on an ergometer, you measure very carefully how much oxygen the body is using, and that will tell you how much energy is being burned, if you like, in very crude terms. And then you look at the ergometer, and you measure very carefully how much energy the athlete is producing, and the ratio of those two after some adjustments give you the index of efficiency.

So, how much oxygen is he using, versus how much energy is he putting into the bike gives you that index of efficiency.

AS: So Coyle was claiming that for a given oxygen consumption, Armstrong was producing more watts because he was making himself more efficient through training.

MA: That's right. The claim was that because Armstrong had been training for three to six hours on his bike over a period of years, that probably altered his muscle composition, which led him to having a greater efficiency. Now, the only, the glaring oversight there, is that Lance Armstrong is NOT the only cyclist that trains for three to six hours on his bike each day, it's pretty much routine for a professional cyclist.

So, many other professionals have been measured after they've done this same sort of training, but none of them have shown a change in efficiency, which immediately brings into question the basis of Coyle's claim.

And he speculates that this was due to his unique ability to convert his fast twitch muscles to slow twitch muscles.

Again, there was no data to substantiate it. It was his speculation, attempting to explain what he had measured. Again, it just comes down to a simple case of, well, ok, if that was the underlying biological reason, then you'd expect to see it happen over and over again. There's nothing, despite what other people want to believe, there's nothing unique about Lance Armstrong. He's a human being, and he responds as other human beings do to training. And no one else has ever measured those changes that Coyle speculated might've happened in Armstrong.

AS: As a matter of fact, you could take a biopsy of his muscles and analyze it, but he never did.

MA: To put it in context, this wasn't a carefully planned study. This was an opportunistic approach where, the students in the lab related to us, it was simply a matter of Lance Armstrong swinging by occasionally, and Ed Coyle would test him almost as a favor to him, to give him some data. If he came into the lab, great. If he didn't, then there was no data.

And I think that's borne out. If you look at the timing of when these test sessions took place, there really isn't any coherent pattern. For example, if you really wanted to show that your cycling efficiency had increased leading up to a Tour de France, then you want to measure him immediately before, or immediately after the Tour. You don't wait four or five months, like Coyle did in '99, when he's stopped training and was almost beginning the next season.

So, it wasn't carefully planned, the timing of the test sessions were opportunistic rather than carefully thought through.

AS: Let's go in chronological order. You became of aware of this study, and then did you and some of your colleagues lodge a complaint with the University of Texas?

MA: The way it happened is, obviously when the article came out, it spiked a lot of interest and discussion in the scientific community. And the way that scientists address those issues is to write letters to the journal that published the article. Essentially in the letter, you're raising some questions, and then the author is given an opportunity to respond. So both your concerns and his response are published side by side to inform of the rest of the scientific community so they can judge for themselves - well I agree with that, or I don't agree with that.

So that's the first thing that happened, there were two letters published in the journal that questioned very specific aspects of the study. One of those aspects was which ergometer did Coyle use to measure Armstrong's power during those seven years. Now, the reason that's so critical is you HAVE to use the same ergometer very carefully calibrated to make sure that when you measure, say, 300 watts in 1992, that seven years later in 1999, if the ergometer reads 300 watts, you want to be sure that that's correct, and not just an artifact of the ergometer that you're using is different, or uncalibrated, or whatever.

So, the first question related to that, because we had experience with these longitudinal studies, they're exceptionally difficult to carry out successfully. The first question that we had was, "Did you use the same ergometer to measure power output?"

And categorically Coyle responded, "Yes I did. The same ergometer was used for all tests." And, we had to take that at face value. When you question a scientist, they publish their response, and you are obliged to accept whatever they say. So we pretty much had to accept that. We still had reservations, but that was as much as we could know.

Then interestingly, the paper itself became involved in an arbitration hearing where I was asked to serve as an expert witness and interpret this paper for the hearing. In that process I did some background checking to verify to myself what was happening and could this data be relied on. And I was very surprised when we were given a photograph showing Lance Armstrong in the first test session on an ergometer that was definitely not the ergometer that Coyle claims he tested him on.

It was a very disturbing revelation and it was purely a fluke occurrence, where the journalist had been in the laboratory, was taking photos for this journal article, and happened to take a photo while Armstrong was being tested. So we had that reservation and several others that we still felt uneasy about, and we elected to take those directly to Ed Coyle confidentially. We spelled out our concerns, and we said, "Professor Coyle, with the greatest respect, we really don't believe this paper is worthy of publication, would you please retract it?"

And his response was characteristically vehement, and adamant, that he would not retract the paper. And so, from that point we had no option but to seek some other way of getting what we felt was a scientific error corrected. And the next step up was to go to the journal themselves, and say, "Look, these are our concerns, what do you propose we do about it?"

And it came after a lengthy round of discussions, that the journal weren't going to do anything until we made a formal application to the university of scientific misconduct, and that's a very serious step, when you actually go to the scientist's institution and formally claim that he has conducted himself in an inappropriate way. And you're formally asking the university to take action. So those were the steps that began with just an initial "Gee, this paper seems unusual" and gradually became more and more disturbing as more evidence came to light, and eventually resulted in lodging this allegation of misconduct.

It goes on longer... but that's the part I meant.
 
Last edited:
Sportsscientists.com

Incidentally The Science of Sport has an a new article on the psychology of cheating.

In this category we find the athletes who deny, deny, deny, often making grand public statements declaring their innocence. It is possible that in their own minds they do not believe they are doing anything wrong. This might be the result of their psyche or the rationalization of their behaviour along the lines of, "I see all the others doing it, so I am just leveling the playing field, and therefore it is not cheating." One striking feature of many convicted dopers is, looking back, we ask ourselves how these people can sit there and lie and lie and lie to the camera, and this is one explanation---that they do not even perceive themselves to be lying.

This applies to all the "natural" bodybuilders as well.:D
 
Ok, I know Canseco is a total dbag. But if you read his book you know that a lot of what he discussed was the "technological advancement" of humans. Just as equipment has advanced in sports, the upper limits of human performance should be allowed to advance as well. You don't hear Jack Nicklaus and Arnold Palmer bitching about how inferior their clubs were, if they would have had the technology that Tiger has at his disposal, they surely would have used it.......Also, something Conseco discussed was the analogy of pro sports to the average persons job. If you could take a pill that would increase your work productivity which would in turn ABSOLUTELY increase your salary would you take it? Of course.....Again, it pains me to quote Canseco because he is a complete tool, but just some food for thought.
 
The rules have changed now, so it's "cheating". Ok. Right. Like in EVERY sport, these rules are just in place to protect the sponsors and organizers and the image of the sport for the IGNORANT public.

The tour had ALWAYS been a doped event. In the early 1900's, guys were injecting small doses of strychnine (rat poison) to constrict blood vessels and drinking alcohol during the event, to kill pain. There's a lot of info on the Tour and doping since it's beginnings. The unofficial slogan of the Tour de France has always been, "No Dope, No Hope".
 
I think a true competitor will do whatever it takes to be the best. Drug usage is just as important as nutrition and training for a serious athlete. Drug testing just means the athelte/trainer must be smarter when it comes to the drug protocol. I think Lance Armstrong has no testicals from his testicular cancer, so he must be supplemeting his test levels( i could be wrong on him having no testes) at the least these guys should be taking just enough test suspension to put them at the level acceptable under the rules( I believe they are allowed to have test levels that are quite a bit higher than normal range) I believe Floyd Landis tested positive for test Enanthane so he wasn't very smart or he was given the wrong kind of test by his trainers/coach. These guys are crazy competitors to get to this level, they will kill their mother to be a few seconds faster, they will do anything to win, thats how they got to be the best.
 
I'd like to see an all steroid team. I'd like to see two jacked up monsters who have drank a gallon of cheque drops go at it in the octagon. That would be entertainment.

With that being said, if the rule says no and you do anyway, you are breaking the rules. So yes, it is cheating in my opinion.
 
If you had read the link to the interview of that doping expert KillerStack posted, you'd have learnt that Lance's 99 Tour blood samples were tested again in 2005 with new methods, and they showed up positive for EPO...

I'm sorry but taking a blood sample that is 6 yrs old is very suspicious, don't you think? So does the cycling world hold onto blood test samples indefinitely, waiting for improved testing methods to come out? Think about that, why would they keep the tests? I don't give a shit what any report says, what any organization says, I've been in the professional sports arena. Since he tested positive on the "re-test", are they going to strip his wins?

So you think Lance might be a life time natural? If you've read even a little on drug testing you know there's only a few drugs/methods that can be detected. Even WADA says hGH has been used with impunity for decades. Only recently has there been a positive for hGH - one positive, finally! And detectable only via blood testing, not urine. Why wouldn't cyclists use hGH or insulin if there's no chance of getting caught? The expert I linked to, for example, admits that while there's no way to use autologous blood transfusions, homologous is still undetectable. So if you can now say with high certainty Lance doesn't use EPO there's still tons of drugs that are undetectable! I've seen things like Actovegin, Synachten, etc, mentioned. The expert admits that athletes will very likely use something if it can't be detected, and he would do the same in their situation!

I checked my old favorite board yesterday since it was mentioned on cyclingnews, cuttingedgemuscle, which I haven't visited much since "Nandi" died, and there's lots of cyclists talking about drug trends in cycling.

scienceofsport.com also has lots of info if interested.

I don't know if he's natural, never said he was. All I'm saying is that when people are on top, there are millions on the bottom pissing and moaning about them cheating. Drug testing via blood isn't something that is ground breaking, I was drug tested via blood when I played pro ball. This was going on for years before I got there (2005).

The bolded statement is an opinion, and just because the "expert" would do it doesn't mean that everyone is!

Has any credible person come forward admitting to selling, administering, watching, helping, anything to do with PED's and these world class athletes? It's all a guy who failed a test throwing someone under the bus, someone being indicted throwing someone under the bus, it's never someone who has nothing to lose or gain saying these things, does this not strike you guys as odd?

Whether they used or not is not my concern, but without a legitimate drug test (not one that's using a 6yr old sample), nobody can say for certain.
 
Just b/c you ''passed'' a drug test doesnt mean you ''passed''... im sure if they handed someone 50,000 cash they would pass them...
Also has anyone here seen the move ''the Program''? LOL

Yes, bad ass movie!!!

If Barry Bonds "failed" a drug test, it would take a lot more than 50k to keep someones mouth shut. Any world class athlete would have to pay big time, and there is still no guarantee.
 
I thought this thread was gonna be about cheating on your girlfriend or something by the title of it.
 
I'm sorry but taking a blood sample that is 6 yrs old is very suspicious, don't you think? So does the cycling world hold onto blood test samples indefinitely, waiting for improved testing methods to come out? Think about that, why would they keep the tests? I don't give a shit what any report says, what any organization says, I've been in the professional sports arena. Since he tested positive on the "re-test", are they going to strip his wins?

Seems like you are not aware that WADA holds on to samples for 8 years for this specific purpose, to be able to go back and reanalyze samples as new testing methods are developed. This is obviously to ad further deterrent to doping. Athletes are well aware of which compounds and methods are currently undetectable. I don't know if this policy was adopted back in '99 but apparently Lance got off on some technicality.

The bolded statement is an opinion, and just because the "expert" would do it doesn't mean that everyone is!

Has any credible person come forward admitting to selling, administering, watching, helping, anything to do with PED's and these world class athletes? It's all a guy who failed a test throwing someone under the bus, someone being indicted throwing someone under the bus, it's never someone who has nothing to lose or gain saying these things, does this not strike you guys as odd?

Whether they used or not is not my concern, but without a legitimate drug test (not one that's using a 6yr old sample), nobody can say for certain.

"Everyone" in the know "knows" Lance doped like everyone else. Everyone knows Landis was/is a liar, even wrote a book on about his innocence with donated money. People don't hold him in high regard, but a large part of the cycling community feels Landis is now blowing the lid off this scam that is Lance being this virgin pure cyclist in a completely dirty sport, which they feel is a long time coming. So while Landis is a rat they also feel this needs to be exposed. Landis will need backing, but since it now seems the FEDs are involved there's a big chance many will cooperate since jail time is a possibility if you lie under oath.

Though I feel they are a bit misguided in thinking sports, and cycling in particular, can ever be cleaned up. There were high hopes for the blood-passport system but it doesn't seem to be working 100%.

Further reading for those interested, which I doubt anyone but me is. But just in case.:D
**broken link removed**
 

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