IT'S OFFICIAL..AMI WILL DESTROY BODYBUILDING..

[Anibal5]

Many questions raised

1] Is BB financially destitute? If so how do you know?
2] The magazines have a large control over the marketing of the entire profession yet many of the above comments relate to competition. This is not the realm of the magazines and is the realm of the judges. No, I am not saying that they are mutually exclusive, yet if the judges change what they award, the sport will change ....

Assuming a single competition

Why not multiple competitions?
Why not include a fitness Olympia with the Mr Olympia and Masters Olympia?
What I am really saying is that many have commented as if the Mr Olympia has to be indicative of all these opinions i.e. fitness, age, symmetry, shear size etc.. I dont believe thats possible nor necessary.

In AU the word was the 1990 drug (i.e. anabolic) tested Olympia was poorly supported as the "freak" element was blunted in the competitors. The claim was that people WANT to see the freaks, thus the powers that be (I presume Weider) never tested anabolics again. AU is far from the source and this may be inaccurate.

The final word is; the athletes will do what it takes to make money. if we pay the "freaks" the most money then the "freaks-in-work" will continue as before to hopefully become next decades freak. Money talks.

 

[Vander_V]

1] Is BB financially destitute? If so how do you know?
2] The magazines have a large control over the marketing of the entire profession yet many of the above comments relate to competition. This is not the realm of the magazines and is the realm of the judges. No, I am not saying that they are mutually exclusive, yet if the judges change what they award, the sport will change ....

Assuming a single competition

Why not multiple competitions?
Why not include a fitness Olympia with the Mr Olympia and Masters Olympia?
What I am really saying is that many have commented as if the Mr Olympia has to be indicative of all these opinions i.e. fitness, age, symmetry, shear size etc.. I dont believe thats possible nor necessary.

In AU the word was the 1990 drug (i.e. anabolic) tested Olympia was poorly supported as the "freak" element was blunted in the competitors. The claim was that people WANT to see the freaks, thus the powers that be (I presume Weider) never tested anabolics again. AU is far from the source and this may be inaccurate.

The final word is; the athletes will do what it takes to make money. if we pay the "freaks" the most money then the "freaks-in-work" will continue as before to hopefully become next decades freak. Money talks.

I totally agree 100% great post.

 

[big_byrd52]

Garunteed if I asked that question in my gym, I would get the answer "Vander who?" There is a reason that everyone knows who Ronnie is. He is the biggest motherfucker in bodybuilding, period. There is a reason the he signed a huge ass indorsement deal. He's the biggest. If vander and ronnie were working out at the same gym, at the same time, where would everyone's eyes be looking? Come on bro, general public, guys at the gym, whatever. It doesnt matter. Ronnie draws the attention because he simply IS THE BIGGEST! No questions asked.
Also, the guys in the gym at least have a chance of reaching vanders size, not colemans.

i dont think guys want to be as big as ronnie, and not at our gym. We are considered 'freaks' by them. Just think about this for a minute... if these guys think WE are freaks and HE-uge, and we think of coleman as a freak, what do u think these other 150 lb guys think?

Who ever said the girls like huge guys, maybe the taller ones like MDR's purty ass, but if ur as wide as u are tall, u dont get hit on too often. but then again, maybe i just look like a troll.

 

[Massive G]

guys, this debate should never be or include what people outside of this industry think.. vander brings up that he talsk to a lot of people from various back grounds but, no offense, WHO CARES WHAT THEY THINK? they would never buy a ticket to a show.. sure.. if you showed a picture of frank sepe and a pic of dorian most outside of this industry would pick sepe.. but again WHO GIVES A DAMN? now show that same picture to ticket buyers and bodybuilder and see what they say.. completely different.. again.. the wqeiders tried to make it mainstream.. they have had 40 years of trying..NO GO.. vince mcmahon tried again.. he poured tons of money into it.. NO GO.. the physiques of the past could not get the public to give a shit.. the physiques now can not give a person to give a shit.. i know a lot of writers in this industry and many pros.. i talk to them fairly regular.. all agree about one thing.. IT WILL NEVER HAVE MAINSTREAM EXCEPTANCE SO LETS STOP TALKING ABOUT IT.. the sport is excepted by those who particpate.. they all also agree that FREAKS SELL THE TICKETS.. haney was considered a freak at 245 pounds.. arnold was considered a freak amongst his peers.. sergio ect ect.. like i stated before.. even if they all showed up looking like a combination of darrem and sepe rolled into one, the general public would not buy a ticket to see it.. but, you would lose a tremendous amount of support among the hardcore fans.. ben weider was shot down numerous times in regards to olympic exceptance.. he just will not learn..
the physiques of old would not impress the buyers of most of the magazines today.. like i stated before.. arnold would have taken what ever it took to succeed .. if igf and slin were available he would have taken it.. you can not regulate what people are using .. arnold, according to ric drasin, his training partner, told of arnold taking dbol by THE BOTTLE FULL.. DAILY.. same for serge nubret.. robert kennedy , owner of muscle mag international magazine, told of watching serge nubret take a handful of dbol with each meal.. they had a "classic" physique in spite of themselves..
i think we can all agree that we all hate big bloated guts.. no question there.. i think we can all agree that sythol used wrong can be very distractingh to a physique.. but, i think it is foolish to say that a 270 lbs competitor can not have symmetry or a pleasing physique.. guys who stated that they do not want to get any bigger, like those in the new flex mag, can hardly be considered gym warriors.. train to maintain? forget that crap.. boring.. ill support the nabba or another organization if ami does stupid crap like this.. the sport has room for all types of physiques but, if the ifbb is taking this attitude that smaller physiques are somehow more healthy they are fooling themselves... dexter has gained 100 pounds since he started bodybuilding.. so has ronnie.. why is dexters 100 pound gain healthier than ronnies? dxter at 5'6 gains 100 poundsto 230.. ronnie gains 100 pounds to 290.. ronnie is 6'0 ft tall.. now.. who is healthier>? they obviously both took ample amounts of gear to getthat way.. dexter would more than likely have to take similar dosages.. his genes just do not allow for a massive look.. if you watch haidar trauin.. he trains with very heavy weights and does sets similar to ronnie.. yet he is not massive.. why? cause his genes do not allow it.. yet there is ignorance by those who assume that he is healthier.. yet for all the weight he slings, haidar is only known for his symmetry..he is small.. put ronnie through the same workouts and he becomes a freak.. ronnie responds better.. so does it not make sense that maybe ronnie responds better to gear also? maybe ronnie needs a hell of a lot less than we think due to his great genes.. maybe haidar is the one abusing just to be symmetrical ..
whne looking at the physiques of the "golden era" we can also surmise that sergio had the best genetics given to anyone in that time.. his waist was smaller than arnolds by far.. his quads and hams were huge and veiney.. he also worked in a foundery all day putting in 12 hour days and eating beans hotdogs and drinking cokes.. yet he still won a few mr olympias.. atrnol on the other hand, was catered to.. weider gave him a place to live. weider gave him money.. he laid on the beach and trained.. eat well.. yet his ophysique was not any better than sergios for all the pampering he had.. danny padilla, boyer coe and many others said that arnold was not as good as sergio..arnold has since admitted that sergio had much better genetics for bodybuilding.. there were some good physiques for that time.. but, most, even with todays knowledge and supplements would not be special in comparison to todays competitors.. the gene pool has widened and more guys are involved.. the gene pool was shallow at that time.. not many competitors.. the physiques were classic in many instances because they were not big and they were one of just a few.. they took ample gear.. hell it was cheap and legal.. they trained and lifted and got , by todays standards, physiques that would not win a state title.. some were very good.. arnold, sergio, nubret, columbo, paddila..but, even arnold has admitted that he would have a tough time today on the state level.. that is not to diminish what they accomplished for us as bodybuilders today.. but, those "classic" physiques are very mediocre by todays standards.. (that being said , swergio is still favorite bodybuilder and one of the few, given todays knolwedge that could be competitive) i love to think of arnold and sergio ect training at golds and i love those old time black and white training photos.. but, they are just looking into the past.. they were great then.. not now.. some may espire to look like them.. but, you will not do it with out ample drugs.. they used good amounts.. danny padilla had open heart surgery.. boyer coe had open heart surgery.. arnold had open heart surgery... ed corney has had a massive stroke and heart complications.. sergios joints are shot .. how are thse guys healthier than todays guys?... maybe they are linked to their massive usage.. maybe not.. but look athe number of health problems in regards to the golden age old timers compared to how many competed.. looks kinda like today.. so what ia m saying is they used massive amounts and "only" achieved a "classic" physique.. the gene pool had less to draw from.. they got a smaller physique comapred to the guys of today.. but, it was not from a lack of "trying".. lol if weider and the ifbb want a return of the "golden age" they better look a little closer.. it does not appear any different than today.. drug use.. drug use.. but, they "appeared" to take less.. the hypocrisy of the ifbb is disgusting.. arnold wants to have future political ambitions and he is giving it to us in the shorts.. do not think that his taking over muscle and fitness as a "editor" is not responsible.. he is getting heat from others and he is trying to look good.. all the while he did the same thing.. and lots of it..

best post on here. BB'ing of any type will NEVER be mainstream as America keeps getting fatter and fatter and furtherer away from fitness.

Wanna kill BB'ing??... Drug Test!! and or put the beach body's at the top.
nobody wants to see the type of body's they see in the gym.

Anybody remember the IFBB MR UNIVERSE? That used to be THE contest to win and carried worldwide recognition.
All the great were launched from that contest....what happened the dip shit Weiders satrted drug testing it to get it into OLYMPICS. Well guess what?? it never happened, hell we can have badminton and poker as olympic sports but not BB'ers.
Now the Mr Universe is a non contest and dominated by foreigners that now to for the most part know how to beat the drug test.

I don't mean to offend people and it is just my opinion but bodybuilding is about building eating and building your body with basic foods exercises and chems as a last resort. It's not about hammer strength leverage presses side laterals cable movements continuos tension and 200 lb bodies and eating like a bird. It's not always about who takes the most drugs it's about getting under some heavy ass weight in theb basics and pounding food.

Today bb'ers look they came off an assembly line. Same diets drug protocols routines etc. Like a blue print For "failure" and bad health.

Everyone points to Ronnie as the problem because he is the top gun but BB'ers are chasing the size dragon becasue the purpose after all is to build.

The problem starts at the very deepest bottom at all in the amatuer level on these boards and in the gyms where the kids are abusing chems at an early age with no real experience in diet and training or any muscle maturity at all.
I get sick every time I see an elaborate proteocol over analysed and laid out with GH IGF-1 'slin an array of anabolics and test Anti-E's, Clen T3 etc....

Again just my opinion.

 

[Vander_V]

Garunteed if I asked that question in my gym, I would get the answer "Vander who?" There is a reason that everyone knows who Ronnie is. He is the biggest motherfucker in bodybuilding, period. There is a reason the he signed a huge ass indorsement deal. He's the biggest. If vander and ronnie were working out at the same gym, at the same time, where would everyone's eyes be looking? Come on bro, general public, guys at the gym, whatever. It doesnt matter. Ronnie draws the attention because he simply IS THE BIGGEST! No questions asked.
Also, the guys in the gym at least have a chance of reaching vanders size, not colemans.

THATS THE WHOLE POINT OF HIS POST , hes using my physique as an example ,not my name bro lol , you say the guys in the gym have a chance of at least reaching my size and guess what i agree thats the whole point , its obtainable with good structure and decent genetics and using extremely low amounts aas and taking long breaks , THIS seems possible to people it motivates them to try and reach that goal , that is why im in every magazine even internationally plus max muscles mag which is in a ton of gyms ,,, i guess your right in a way people do want to strive for my size and look why the hell not is 240lbs with a 32 inch waist a bad thing? just had to stick up for ole V V , to be honest theres no reason to bring my name into this , im just debating with fellow board members its all fair game and im sure LATS Gooey and Big Ed know this as well. peace.

 

[big_byrd52]

Vander, its bad enough ur taking over every mag and supplement ad, and now the movies. U can take all that... but stay the hell outta my gym! is that too much to ask! damn! u give a guy an inch and takes a yard. u give him a yard and he wants a freakin swimming pool in it! sheesh, some people!

 

[Vander_V]

Vander, its bad enough ur taking over every mag and supplement ad, and now the movies. U can take all that... but stay the hell outta my gym! is that too much to ask! damn! u give a guy an inch and takes a yard. u give him a yard and he wants a freakin swimming pool in it! sheesh, some people!

shit my bad bro

 

[Vander_V]

FLEX MAG

Great fn article on Dugdale and Alves , page 72 .

 

[Nemesis79]

haha now all us 200 + guys will be the biggest mofos on the planet...i'm halfway between both i like the classic look becaue it's attainable and stress free in that you dont' have to use huge amounts of gear..plus i like having the ronnies..around...

thre's only one thing to do wait and see what happens

 

[Big Ed]

not a big big fan of the site but they have a good thread going for the Big Guys
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=32139.0

 

[gooey]

well

you say the guys in the gym have a chance of at least reaching my size and guess what i agree thats the whole point , its obtainable with good structure and decent genetics and using extremely low amounts aas and taking long breaks , THIS seems possible to people it motivates them to try and reach that goal

I guess I dont train to attain a certain size to be like everyone else. Not saying everyone is 240 with a 32 inch waist. I train not to be like everyone else that is one reason I liked BBing cause this acitivity is not a cookie cutter for everyone to look like. That is one reason it is fun to be a BBer cause U attain a size/image and a look that most cannot even understand or imagine. Why be like everyone else, why follow the pack of sheep to be like everyone else. That is what makes BBing unique and taboo, because it is not a norm.
gooey

 

[Nemesis79]

I guess I dont train to attain a certain size to be like everyone else. Not saying everyone is 240 with a 32 inch waist. I train not to be like everyone else that is one reason I liked BBing cause this acitivity is not a cookie cutter for everyone to look like. That is one reason it is fun to be a BBer cause U attain a size/image and a look that most cannot even understand or imagine. Why be like everyone else, why follow the pack of sheep to be like everyone else. That is what makes BBing unique and taboo, because it is not a norm.
gooey

plus it's a hard fucken thing to do...but the pay off is great

 

[TooPowerful4u]

did ya take a poll for that 99% huh? Hmmm As I stated before other times I am in agreement with u on the distended belly, and disorted facial features, but to isolate the 300 + freaks as u like to call them as the "ONLY" drug abuser is ignorant. Many BBers 130 lbs up to 300 + use and abuse. And the golden age of BBing was nice but one thing NO LEGS all arms and chest that is what that era was cept for Haney who in contradiction to ur argument opened the door more mass, more seperation, better conditioning. He was near 240 or 250 in the end of his reign on stage. Which then Dorian and Ronnie took it to new levels. Yes Markus Ruhl is not he prettiest thing to look at and I agree but I dont agree that Id rather look at a BBer with less muscle, less equal proportions, less conditioning. Id take a top shapes of Chris Cormier, Jay Cutler, Kevin Levrone, flex wheeler over any of the past BBers. I dont think it is fair to isolate larger BBers and place only them into the "chemical mess" as u stated.
gooey

this i completly agree with. The past "classic physiques" were all no legs, all chest n arms. Thats not bodybuilding thats beach body building. Sorry V i gotta disagree here, you talk about what mainstream wants, but competitive bodybuilding will NEVER be mainstream. Thats just how it is. NEVER. Accept it. Its NEVER gonna be like the NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, etc.... Its a cult sport. You gotta understand that. Selling products and being in ads and being in Mens Health and Muscle and Fitness sure, model types are preferred and thats whats gonna sell THOSE mags and most supplements. A great model look with great lines and sleak physique is definatly gonna sell more products because it appeals to the mainstream gym goers who want to just look good for the ladies or themselves. Now when it comes to the IFBB, NPC, and competitive bodybuilding, thats not what any1 wants. Like i said before.... best COMBINATION of mass, detail, conditioning, seperation, lines, balance, symmetry, etc.... thats what it should be. We dont want the Pro's to be the same bodies we see every day that half the population can attain, the fans of bodybuilding want to see what i just stated, something that is VERY hard to achieve and VERY rare to see and "freaky".

 

[marshall]

THATS THE WHOLE POINT OF HIS POST , hes using my physique as an example ,not my name bro lol , you say the guys in the gym have a chance of at least reaching my size and guess what i agree thats the whole point , its obtainable with good structure and decent genetics and using extremely low amounts aas and taking long breaks , THIS seems possible to people it motivates them to try and reach that goal

That's bottom line. Vander was used as an example because he is very popular on this board, so everyone knows what I meant.

That type physique can inspire people, motivate people, encourage people, yet we still know it is unattainable for 99.5% of the people who are pumping iron in gyms today.

Why someone who aspires to be Mr Olympia has to be a guru on how not to kill himself with things like DNP, insulin or diuretics should be point enough to say things have to be changed and they will I'm sure of it.

I asked 20+ people in the gym today (regulars) there were 2 who knew who Ronnie Coleman was, and another said a running back with the Houston Oilers back in the 70's. You guys are way over-estimating top pro's popularity.

Hell, when I joined this board I thought Phil Hernon was black! Got him confused with Phil Hill, never heard of Hernon (no offense).

 

[marshall]

this i completly agree with. The past "classic physiques" were all no legs, all chest n arms. Thats not bodybuilding thats beach body building. Sorry V i gotta disagree here, you talk about what mainstream wants, but competitive bodybuilding will NEVER be mainstream. Thats just how it is. NEVER. Accept it. Its NEVER gonna be like the NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, etc.... Its a cult sport. You gotta understand that. Selling products and being in ads and being in Mens Health and Muscle and Fitness sure, model types are preferred and thats whats gonna sell THOSE mags and most supplements. A great model look with great lines and sleak physique is definatly gonna sell more products because it appeals to the mainstream gym goers who want to just look good for the ladies or themselves. Now when it comes to the IFBB, NPC, and competitive bodybuilding, thats not what any1 wants. Like i said before.... best COMBINATION of mass, detail, conditioning, seperation, lines, balance, symmetry, etc.... thats what it should be. We dont want the Pro's to be the same bodies we see every day that half the population can attain, the fans of bodybuilding want to see what i just stated, something that is VERY hard to achieve and VERY rare to see and "freaky".

You contradict yourself here. Are you trying to tell me that Ronnie Coleman has balance, symmetry and a 40" waistline? If so, I'm not buying it.

Are you saying a 240 pound bodybuilder @ 5'10 with a 30-32" waist, perfect symmmetry, balance, lines, seperation, conditioning etc...is a beach bodybuilder and just around to sell protein powder and carb drinks? They just couldn't possibly stand next to Markus Ruhl or Ronnie Coleman and look better? I'm not buying that either.

So bodybuilders Vanders size are what half of the people we see every day in the gym look like? 1/2 the population can attain that? C'mon man, get serious.

I live in SE Florida, go to South Beach on regular occasion, have been to alot of gyms down here. Ya, there are a few pro's around, ya there are a few national level competitors, but let me tell you bro, it is very, very, very, very, very few and far between that I see someone with a "Vander" type physique strolling around the clubs or shopping malls or training. Sorry bro, this is only attainable by about 99.5% of people who are working out in gyms, let alone the rest of the general public.

 

[LATS]

marshall, so you are telling me that someone who has a "large waist" line but, has a 60 inch chest and flaring 34 inch thighs is not symmetrical? so if a person who has a 40 inch waist(as you stated) and a 60 inch chest (a difference of 20 inches) is less syemettrical than someone who has a 32 inch waist and 50 inch chest..? (a 18 inch difference) ones body can flow nicely as long as there is a strong difference in the waist and chest.. ronnie fits that type.. yet people will say that haidar has a great symettrical physique.. but, his waist is actually pretty large in comparison to his chest measurement.. does not make since.. again.. it always comes back to people believing that a masiive type physique can not be symmetricall.. that is nonesense.. if everything is big and there is a dramatic difference in waist to chest taper , how is that not symmetical.. as for the smaller guy not being able to stand next to ronnie.. toopowerful is right.. the only people able to stand next to ronnie is jay at his largest.. the bigger guy should always win if it is coming down to the wire and pitting the smaller guy next to the bigger freak.. why? it is bodybuilding.. not body shaping.. mass and conditioning should beat nice lines and symmetry any day.. all things being equal of course.. both in shape.. both in condition .. the next thing is mass.. all things being equal the bigger guy should win.. mass is a huge factor in the equation.. it should stay that way.. if not. you do not have bodybuilding.. yo have a modified fitness/ male beauty contest.. please god ..no!!

 

[Vander_V]

I guess I dont train to attain a certain size to be like everyone else. Not saying everyone is 240 with a 32 inch waist. I train not to be like everyone else that is one reason I liked BBing cause this acitivity is not a cookie cutter for everyone to look like. That is one reason it is fun to be a BBer cause U attain a size/image and a look that most cannot even understand or imagine. Why be like everyone else, why follow the pack of sheep to be like everyone else. That is what makes BBing unique and taboo, because it is not a norm.
gooey

no shit lol.

So are you saying your look/image or whatever isnt attainable > ?

To become unique or what u call taboo one must willingly put his health at risk to reach an image where people cant even understand, do u not agree with this Gooey? who the Fuck wants to do that? not one person I know and im being quite honest. Gooey you say the reason it is "FUN" to be a BB is to attain this , why not think like Dugdale and Alves they keep whats important in life ahead of them at all times and they are not "NORM" ,, Dude you really need to read that ariticle in flex it makes sense bro , why put yourself thro that shit ? life is to short .

 

[Vander_V]

That's bottom line. Vander was used as an example because he is very popular on this board, so everyone knows what I meant.

That type physique can inspire people, motivate people, encourage people, yet we still know it is unattainable for 99.5% of the people who are pumping iron in gyms today.

Why someone who aspires to be Mr Olympia has to be a guru on how not to kill himself with things like DNP, insulin or diuretics should be point enough to say things have to be changed and they will I'm sure of it.

I asked 20+ people in the gym today (regulars) there were 2 who knew who Ronnie Coleman was, and another said a running back with the Houston Oilers back in the 70's. You guys are way over-estimating top pro's popularity.

Hell, when I joined this board I thought Phil Hernon was black! Got him confused with Phil Hill, never heard of Hernon (no offense).

word!

 

[Vander_V]

this i completly agree with. The past "classic physiques" were all no legs, all chest n arms. Thats not bodybuilding thats beach body building. Sorry V i gotta disagree here, you talk about what mainstream wants, but competitive bodybuilding will NEVER be mainstream. Thats just how it is. NEVER. Accept it. Its NEVER gonna be like the NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, etc.... Its a cult sport. You gotta understand that. Selling products and being in ads and being in Mens Health and Muscle and Fitness sure, model types are preferred and thats whats gonna sell THOSE mags and most supplements. A great model look with great lines and sleak physique is definatly gonna sell more products because it appeals to the mainstream gym goers who want to just look good for the ladies or themselves. Now when it comes to the IFBB, NPC, and competitive bodybuilding, thats not what any1 wants. Like i said before.... best COMBINATION of mass, detail, conditioning, seperation, lines, balance, symmetry, etc.... thats what it should be. We dont want the Pro's to be the same bodies we see every day that half the population can attain, the fans of bodybuilding want to see what i just stated, something that is VERY hard to achieve and VERY rare to see and "freaky".

What you know about what sells foo ? BB and its hard core fans aint enuff dont you know that ?????? Troy Alves busted his fucking ass for years to get to an Olympia and when he did he was rewarded 8 grand not after taxes lol shit i can make that in a month BB needs to broaden its horizon thats all im saying , for the 5th time it needs to change and change it slowy will yr by yr in order to make mO MoneY . look its a business just like anything else , if the business is failing they fire and hire or make changes just how it is . tahts why this thread was made tp4u shit is changing.

 

[Anibal5]

Two areas keep repeating themselves above;

1] this thread started with the query? can BB die? Well reading the above I cant see any lack of passion. Which further differentiates the concept of what "is" BB?

a. Is it what you "do" to your body? or
b. What a group of "judges" claim you have done or not done to your body?
c. part of both?

2] Many have commented above on symmetry. A concern among all who compete for sure. You only have to look at the last 10 years of Olympias' to be confused.
eg.
Dorian wins pre-judging = ok
Dorian wins muscularity = ok
Dorian wins symmetry = not ok
Dorian wins posing = not possible

Just an example made difficult in that posing and symmetry are a lot more subjective and thus many differing points of view. I love both mass and aesthetics and can say personally that Dorian can not hold a match to the lines of Flex Wheeler and when you look at posing if you consider transitions and flow with tempo changes and a broad range of poses displayed at numerous heights (i.e kneeling) while using the expanse of the posing dias, then many of the mass monsters cant pose for shit.

That by no means indicates last place in the posing round, but not first either.

How can years of this not be confusing to the athlete in question and then the expected cascade of this confusion all the way to the little YMCA where you and I train? How many times have the semi and pro athletes personally and with friends experienced the post-competitive reflection of;
a] what was i missing?
b] why is my version of a] so different from the judges version of a]?
c] why does b] seem to change somewhat every f***ing contest?

It would seem that making the judging as crystal clear as possible is seen by Weider as Pandoras Box.