IT'S OFFICIAL..AMI WILL DESTROY BODYBUILDING..

[marshall]

marshall, so you are telling me that someone who has a "large waist" line but, has a 60 inch chest and flaring 34 inch thighs is not symmetrical? so if a person who has a 40 inch waist(as you stated) and a 60 inch chest (a difference of 20 inches) is less syemettrical than someone who has a 32 inch waist and 50 inch chest..? (a 18 inch difference) ones body can flow nicely as long as there is a strong difference in the waist and chest..

it is bodybuilding.. not body shaping.. mass and conditioning should beat nice lines and symmetry any day.. all things being equal of course.. both in shape.. both in condition .. the next thing is mass.. all things being equal the bigger guy should win.. mass is a huge factor in the equation.. it should stay that way.. if not. you do not have bodybuilding.. yo have a modified fitness/ male beauty contest.. please god ..no!!

Well actually mathematically a 50-32 is more proportionate than a 60-40 but I get your point.

I still say yes, take out the garbage that has been introduced in the past 10 years, the dangerous, not only physique, but life altering drugs. Synthol, insulin, igf....c'mon man, you really think people should buy into that. That to be a "serious" bodybuilder, you better learn how to correctly use these substances, or you will just be a powder pimp?

How on earth can you say a 250 pound Mr Olympia is a fitness/beauty contest winner? To me Coleman is just an experiment in pharmacology. Someone with a belly that looks like it contains a medicine ball cannot fall under aesthetic no matter which way the cookie crumbles, he lost that awhile ago.

I hate to sound like a Coleman basher, because he's gone further than anyone ever...but bottom line is why? the look is worse, the health is worse and the people are just looking the other way.

Seriously, maybe you already do, I don't know...but if I told you that you needed to spend thousands of dollars on igf, growth, insulin on top of whatever stack was already there and finish off your physique by shooting silicone (synthol) into your weak parts and I could get you top 10 at the NY Pro and you could clear a check for 1k.....you'd take it?

That sounds good? That's what bodybuilding is all about? That's being a mass freak? That's taking the sport to the next level? That's hardcore?

C'mon man...

 

[gooey]

um k

no shit lol.

So are you saying your look/image or whatever isnt attainable > ?

To become unique or what u call taboo one must willingly put his health at risk to reach an image where people cant even understand, do u not agree with this Gooey? who the Fuck wants to do that? not one person I know and im being quite honest. Gooey you say the reason it is "FUN" to be a BB is to attain this , why not think like Dugdale and Alves they keep whats important in life ahead of them at all times and they are not "NORM" ,, Dude you really need to read that ariticle in flex it makes sense bro , why put yourself thro that shit ? life is to short .

didnt say my physique wasnt attainable, its been surpassed IMO.

and how do u know what Mark Dugdale, and Troy Alves do, or how much they do. And how do u know what I am putting my body through? Just because and article state about 2 BBers doesnt necessarily mean it it is true..... I agree life is short that is not the argument here, also its intelligent to keep what is IMPPORTANT in life first. But.... that is also not the point I am making here. It is the fact that BBing is taboo, it can be unhealthy... we all know this. But that still doesnt change the fact that IMO the physiques of today are better then the ones of the "golden age" of BBing and should be the standard as of now
gooey

 

[mdr]

THATS THE WHOLE POINT OF HIS POST , hes using my physique as an example ,not my name bro lol , you say the guys in the gym have a chance of at least reaching my size and guess what i agree thats the whole point , its obtainable with good structure and decent genetics and using extremely low amounts aas and taking long breaks , THIS seems possible to people it motivates them to try and reach that goal , that is why im in every magazine even internationally plus max muscles mag which is in a ton of gyms ,,, i guess your right in a way people do want to strive for my size and look why the hell not is 240lbs with a 32 inch waist a bad thing? just had to stick up for ole V V , to be honest theres no reason to bring my name into this , im just debating with fellow board members its all fair game and im sure LATS Gooey and Big Ed know this as well. peace.

Sorry bro, I didn't bring your name into the discussion, marshall did, but that's not the point. You're right. I was making a point that your size is more attainable than Ronnie's. Hell I don't want to be anywhere as massive as ronnie simply because it has to be hella uncomfortable and way too dangerous to your health. No one said 240lbs and 32inch waist is a bad thing. Thats where I'm at right now. I'm just 2 or 3 inches taller than you which means more mass is needed for me. No hard feelings, just stating that it is nearly impossible for most of us to obtain Ronnie or Jay's overall size. But I would prefer to see the "freaks" at bbing shows, especially at the O. jmo...

 

[LATS]

marshall, the debate is whether ronnie is actually less healthy than a smaller bodybuilder.. no.. he may weigh more but, he is alos 6' ft tall.. just because one does not have the mass that ronnie has does not mean that he is taking less than ronnie.. ronnie has the genetics to be huge (obviously) and he is niot the only one taking the drugs..i know many who are known for the symmetry but, take more shit that i would ever think about.. so do we just let these guys slide because "they look healthier".. know one knows exactly what these guys take.. but do not assume tha ronnie is unhealthy when he is standing next to some one like darrem or dugdale.. they might have him beat in the pharma warfare.. they just dont have the genes to respond to the training like ronnie.. now i do not know what you take.. but, i have never gone over 1000mgs a week total.. that includes test and anthing else.. i , at my biggest was 270 pounds and can be backed up here by many of my friends.. i have never taken gh, igf ect.. mainly only test and maybe another anabolic.. now, i guaratee you that there are many that take double to triple that and throw in some gh on top and are 220 pounds give or take.. or less.... way less.. so am i unhealthy taking the small amounts compared to those who take much larger amounts?..they may be smaller but does not mean they are healthier... some respond better to gear than others..i am willing to but my blood profiles up against a smaller ..more symmetrical bodybuilder anyday.. plus, what i was aying about the "old timers" still sticks.. they may not have had igf ect.. but, they were taking massive amounts.. so do we not single them out because they looked healthier? momo benizzia and munzer were pretty small guys when they died just hours from leaving the stage... none of them were mass monsters and they were known for their symmetry and conditioning.. but, still dead as dead can be... haney is still with us... dorian is still with us.. not too hard to figure out who was abusing their body.. the smaller , more "healthy" one? yep..

 

[Skip]

Wow... 5 pages later.... hehe

I think most all of us LOVE that we are cut from a different mold and aren't mainstream or perceived as normal or boring. THAT, in my opinion, is the main reason that when I or someone else says that bodybuilding is trying to go mainstream, scares the shit out of most all of us. I see some guys referring to 200lb bodybuilders but I never said that and I don't believe that this should be the future of bodybuilding, either. Victor isn't 200lbs. and neither is Troy and they were both examples of mine. I don't care if you get huge or 300 lbs or whatever but I, personally, don't want to see a posedown with Art Atwood, Greg Kovacs, Markus Ruhl and Branch Warren. Go ahead and be 300 lbs but be balanced, proportionate and have great lines and shape.

You can say that bodybuilding has never been mainstream and that would be correct but I guess "mainstream" isn't the best word. My point is that if I were 14 again I would not pick up a magazine and think that I could EVER look like the freak on the cover of FLEX. When I saw Berry DeMey or Rich Gaspari I THOUGHT this was attainable because it wasn't so other worldly. It isn't good for the sport, in my opinion, because it doesn't appeal to people and this impacts the future of the sport. You don't have to look very far to see what has happened to women's bodybulding. No, this isn't exactly the same issue but there are certainly similarities. Female bodybuilding at the pro level is pretty much done and gone. Why? Because not only does it not appeal to mainstream public anymore but it doesn't even appeal to bodybuilding fans, anymore. You can say that it appeals to YOU but the fact remains that tickets simply aren't being bought for these shows.

If bodybuilders, as a rule, had money we could sustain our own sport by the interest within the community. The reality is that most competitive bodybuilders do NOT have alot of money so traveling to shows and putting back into the sport from a financial standpoint, doesn't happen very much at all.

Again, just my opinion through my eyes. If you don't agree that is fine but.... you are terribly wrong. lol

Skip

 

[rAJJIN]

well

I myself wouldnt consider any of todays current pros Average
or "a model on steroids" type. These guys are for real to have worked there asses off to get there...I dont think ANY of them even get on stage at 200
lb do they? maybe the 5' foot guys but theres just a few of them.
I mean in the last 5 yrs I wonder what the average Onstage wght was of the winners of the Npc.

I can NEVER see a 200-220Lb Mr.O.. these days,thats just silly to think imo
maybe 10 years ago..I just watched blood and guts and when Haney beat dorian the year before Haney retired It says dorian was 220. Two years Later
when Dorian Beats Dillet,Levrone,Ray he was onstage at 240..I think thats the same year he tore his bicep.

 

[gooey]

wait a minute.....

How on earth can you say a 250 pound Mr Olympia is a fitness/beauty contest winner? To me Coleman is just an experiment in pharmacology. Someone with a belly that looks like it contains a medicine ball cannot fall under aesthetic no matter which way the cookie crumbles, he lost that awhile ago.

whoa hold the train, who says that ronnie coleman is any bigger of a walking pharmacy then name slike troy alves, and mark dugdale mentioned before. Once again the genetic factor has been removed. Their are a ton people out their that use more stuff then then some pros. Look at Greg Valentino of MD mag, he admitted to using more then 3,000 mgs of stuff a week and he is no ronnie coleman nor any other top BBer. Lets be real here. Yes their are drugs in BBing, yes it can be unhealthy, yes I do agree things have been pushed to a uncertain and unhealthy level. Secondly who ever stated that the Mr. O was suppose to be a fitness/Beauty contest? U want beauty, u want fitness then maybe one should organize a men's figure and fitness show. That is not BBing. Thirdly I keep hearing how the professional ranks of BBing are failing and need change. Does the "natural" BBer world need to change too, I have been involved in BBing for now least 5 years now and rarely have I come across a natural bbing mag. I dont even know if their is a pro ranking for natural bbing anymore and if their is why no media coverage, why not in flex, how come they dont get the attention that the NPC and the IFBB get. Ever seen a natural show in pay per view like the arnold and olympia every year? Once again I am not a fan of GH belly and ugly musculature, but to state that the big guys are the only drug abusers and the top guys that get the most publicity are the ones who r the drug experiment is completely ignorant IMO.
gooey

 

[Future]

God help us all as Vander and I are about to agree. lol

My problem with bodybuilding is this:
Why is the ONLY real "quest", to add size? You never hear guys saying "I need to balance out my physique" or " I really need to work on getting my waist down and increasing my X factor" or something like that. It is ALWAYS about adding more size in the offseason. This is the exact reason and mentality that has gotten bodybuilding to the freak status that it is. Sure, there are some of us that actually enjoy this and that strive to get as big as humanly possible but that is not "bodybuilding" to me. That is called "getting as big as humanly possible".

Bodybuilding absolutely should be about muscle mass but it shouldn't be anymore important than balance, proportion, symmetry, etc.. It should all be equal so don't come at me with the argument of "Oh, I suppose the puny guy with great lines should win" because that is not at all what I am saying.

I want to see more Flex Wheelers and less Markus Ruhl type physiques. You can disagree but you would be crazy to think that the latter is good for the sport in so far as the progression into the mainstream and continuing to attract new fans. If you want to make money by running the IFBB you make it more palatable to the mainstream public and to do that, you HAVE to tone it down.

Just my opinion but I am rarely wrong....

Skip

Great post.

 

[Vander_V]

Wow... 5 pages later.... hehe

I think most all of us LOVE that we are cut from a different mold and aren't mainstream or perceived as normal or boring. THAT, in my opinion, is the main reason that when I or someone else says that bodybuilding is trying to go mainstream, scares the shit out of most all of us. I see some guys referring to 200lb bodybuilders but I never said that and I don't believe that this should be the future of bodybuilding, either. Victor isn't 200lbs. and neither is Troy and they were both examples of mine. I don't care if you get huge or 300 lbs or whatever but I, personally, don't want to see a posedown with Art Atwood, Greg Kovacs, Markus Ruhl and Branch Warren. Go ahead and be 300 lbs but be balanced, proportionate and have great lines and shape.

You can say that bodybuilding has never been mainstream and that would be correct but I guess "mainstream" isn't the best word. My point is that if I were 14 again I would not pick up a magazine and think that I could EVER look like the freak on the cover of FLEX. When I saw Berry DeMey or Rich Gaspari I THOUGHT this was attainable because it wasn't so other worldly. It isn't good for the sport, in my opinion, because it doesn't appeal to people and this impacts the future of the sport. You don't have to look very far to see what has happened to women's bodybulding. No, this isn't exactly the same issue but there are certainly similarities. Female bodybuilding at the pro level is pretty much done and gone. Why? Because not only does it not appeal to mainstream public anymore but it doesn't even appeal to bodybuilding fans, anymore. You can say that it appeals to YOU but the fact remains that tickets simply aren't being bought for these shows.

If bodybuilders, as a rule, had money we could sustain our own sport by the interest within the community. The reality is that most competitive bodybuilders do NOT have alot of money so traveling to shows and putting back into the sport from a financial standpoint, doesn't happen very much at all.

Again, just my opinion through my eyes. If you don't agree that is fine but.... you are terribly wrong. lol

Skip

Wow Skip we finally agree

 

[Vander_V]

marshall, the debate is whether ronnie is actually less healthy than a smaller bodybuilder.. no.. he may weigh more but, he is alos 6' ft tall.. just because one does not have the mass that ronnie has does not mean that he is taking less than ronnie.. ronnie has the genetics to be huge (obviously) and he is niot the only one taking the drugs..i know many who are known for the symmetry but, take more shit that i would ever think about.. so do we just let these guys slide because "they look healthier".. know one knows exactly what these guys take.. but do not assume tha ronnie is unhealthy when he is standing next to some one like darrem or dugdale.. they might have him beat in the pharma warfare.. they just dont have the genes to respond to the training like ronnie.. now i do not know what you take.. but, i have never gone over 1000mgs a week total.. that includes test and anthing else.. i , at my biggest was 270 pounds and can be backed up here by many of my friends.. i have never taken gh, igf ect.. mainly only test and maybe another anabolic.. now, i guaratee you that there are many that take double to triple that and throw in some gh on top and are 220 pounds give or take.. or less.... way less.. so am i unhealthy taking the small amounts compared to those who take much larger amounts?..they may be smaller but does not mean they are healthier... some respond better to gear than others..i am willing to but my blood profiles up against a smaller ..more symmetrical bodybuilder anyday.. plus, what i was aying about the "old timers" still sticks.. they may not have had igf ect.. but, they were taking massive amounts.. so do we not single them out because they looked healthier? momo benizzia and munzer were pretty small guys when they died just hours from leaving the stage... none of them were mass monsters and they were known for their symmetry and conditioning.. but, still dead as dead can be... haney is still with us... dorian is still with us.. not too hard to figure out who was abusing their body.. the smaller , more "healthy" one? yep..

I can guarentee Ronnie is less healthier then Dugdale , shit id bet my right nut on that one.

 

[marshall]

Lats, I'm not saying smaller guys don't do more, not by any means. Genetics determine that. Bottom line is genetics determine everything in the bb world.
Some people with great genetics choose not to compete or risk their health by keeping up with the alchemy that other top competitors have chosen to impart on themselves. That's really what seperates the top from the rest.

There's guys with Coleman's genetics around, I'm quite sure of that, but they don't want the end result of keeping pace.

Skip made a very good post !

Bottom line is bodybuilding is quickly becoming a dis-interesting sideshow, a red-headed step-child so to speak. Marketability and credability are gone.

This is NOT the worlds most perfect physical speciman guys, no way, no how

**broken link removed**

 

[gooey]

hmmm

I can guarentee Ronnie is less healthier then Dugdale , shit id bet my right nut on that one.

garuntees, assumptions, 99% poll, I mean come on, I can agree with some things that skip has said but this is not factual information, is Ronnies health chart out there some where on the internet? How do u know that Dugdale is anymore healthier then Coleman? Cause he's smaller and PRETTIER. DOnt assume what u dont know. If Ronnie were not in good health, how would one decipher that a smaller BBer like Dex and Dugdale are anymore healthier.
gooey

 

[Vander_V]

garuntees, assumptions, 99% poll, I mean come on, I can agree with some things that skip has said but this is not factual information, is Ronnies health chart out there some where on the internet? How do u know that Dugdale is anymore healthier then Coleman? Cause he's smaller and PRETTIER. DOnt assume what u dont know. If Ronnie were not in good health, how would one decipher that a smaller BBer like Dex and Dugdale are anymore healthier.
gooey

relaaaaaax Big gooey, just my opinion and beliefs thats all.

 

[LATS]

That is fine to have those beliefs vander but, at least come froward with why you belive that dugdale is healthier.. does he take less in your opinion? and if he does not, why is he healthier? i pointed out the fact that we have had deaths involving the smaller guys so, they obviously were not healthier.. why do you have those beliefs because we know for a fact that smaller guys to not take less on all accounts..

 

[Vander_V]

That is fine to have those beliefs vander but, at least come froward with why you belive that dugdale is healthier.. does he take less in your opinion? and if he does not, why is he healthier? i pointed out the fact that we have had deaths involving the smaller guys so, they obviously were not healthier.. why do you have those beliefs because we know for a fact that smaller guys to not take less on all accounts..

why is he healthier cause i honestly beleive Mark and Troy when they say family is more important then anything and becoming unhealthy isnt in the plan for them ,, Troy is a local here in AZ great guy, no way in hell would he put himself in a bad state of health, at the every forst signs hed be out.,

 

[GENE]

I truly doubt there is a pro that stepped into the realm of hardcore bodybuilding expecting to become a multi millionaire. bodybuilding is a hobby that some take to the limit. fitness and modeling is a business, there is $$ to be made there. Thats why you see so many infomercials for a quick set of abs.
if you dont like bodybuilding then i suggest you turn your attention to musclemania with thier fame fitness and model expo.

 

[Skip]

... I can agree with some things that skip has said but this is not factual information, is Ronnies health chart out there some where on the internet? How do u know that Dugdale is anymore healthier then Coleman?

I just want to make clear that even though I agree with alot of what Vander is saying in this thread, I can't side with him on his opinion that Mark is any healthier than Ronnie. Quite frankly, I don't really care. That is their business as my opinions are based solely on the sports appeal on the surface - what the mainstream public sees and is either turned on or turned off by. Now, I don't know Mark or Troy so if they have a higher moral ground than most at that level, I respect that but I would have no way of knowing if this is true or not. If Vander does know this then I understand now where his opinion is based on.

Marshall:
I have to agree with your assessment of bodybuilding as being a sideshow and losing credibility and marketability. I hate to admit it and I don't want this to happen but it seems blatantly obvious that this is happening. I have a thread up on my board that I give my opinions on the current pathetic state of bodybuilding and how we all need to do so much more to project this sport in a more positive light.

Skip

 

[DOCTREMBLAY]

WOAH

Well I think both groups should take up their own torch LOL

I mean guys BB'ing is about being big, i dont think it is "what the fans want" necessarily, imean peopel went to see Arnie & Franco back then becuase though they may have had lines, they were freaks to peopel back then...... i mean listen to arnolds old talks and interviews, peopel looked t him and franco and others like they where aliens, it is not different now.......... the majority of people are lazy, work , eat fee dthe kids and sleep that is it

Most cant fathom spending an hour on the weights a day and 30-45 minute sof cardio, thatis just as insane and foreign to them a sthe freaky physiques just doing that and looking above average makes you half an alien to most people I have come to find, much less if you are 215-300 lbs then you are something they dont understand, and most ikely never will........... it is human nauture some admire it and even though they know they would never have the will or discipline to get there, and some fear or at minimum dont understand it

I dont know why they (medi & gov0 cant screw off, everyone is different i dont rag on skinny as tennis players cuase i think they are weird for wearing their little outfits and carrying rackets........... i dont care if it make sthem happy and thay aint bothering me......... i dont care about golfers wearing their goofy ass clothes and spending thousands of dollars on equipment and membership fees and greens fees, if it makes them happy............ i think it boils down the average guy is more intimidated by a huge guy more than other athletes becuase of the powerful look and the fear of what that person could do if angry to them or someone else and also lets face it women, a lot more than admit dig the huge muscles

as for the asthetics I like the freaky side, hell I been over 220 since i was 18, at point well abov 250 but again to the average person anything over 215 lean and a decent height is freaky............so with us bodybuilding fans it is the same it take more to seem freaky to us, and some top out before others on where that line ends and grotesque starts........... either way i think it isnot your body, if you like look, if you dont look elsewhere, either type of physique the work, dedication and will it takes to get in good shape regardless of how freaky, is something that should be respected

 

[RicPhoenix]

The scientist in me says:


What are all of us basing our comments on?

It appears that NONE of us have any data other than our personal observations or opinions.

Where are the market surveys?

For example...have you ever considered that the same "mainstream person" which it seems we are so desperately trying to appeal to may not like a 220 lbs bodybuilder physique just as much as they dont like a 300 lbs bodybuilder physique? This especially holds true with women....many times if they grew up in a house with no athletes and a sedentary dad that is what they come to expect as far as physique is concerned and Vin Diesel and Stallone is even too muscular for their liking.

Furthermore, the various administrators that may want to change bodybuilding...under the claims that its "not appealing" What do they base this on ? Is it their opinion of what the public thinks or is it based on market surveys done at the Arnold or Olympia and Balley, World or Golds around the USA? (Even changing the physique standards may have NO effect on "mainstream" acceptance if the mainstream just are not interested....natural bodybuilding has smaller physiques yet I dont see a copy of Natural Bodybuilding World in the library...but I do see Sports Illustrated or Men's Health and neither of these put Natural bodybuilding in their magazines)

If none of this has been looked at...which seems to be the case...then everything in this thread is only our opinions, which is not a bad thing because its good to discuss ideas but it has to be kept in that perspective.

Just keeping it real....

 

[Trulyhuge]

I too do not see how these "opinions" can be varified? How do you know bro? You hang w/ Mark? You see his stuff? You see Ronnies?

I can guarentee Ronnie is less healthier then Dugdale , shit id bet my right nut on that one.