I'm about 1/2 through reading all those and again they just talk about BLOOD PRESSURE
I'm not seeing anything on lipids, cardiac remodeling or insulin sensitivity or any other properties that make this drug unique
"i have mentioned nebi as a good alternative to atenolol with some added benefits. Different mode of action though then telmi. I would combine both ( telmi and nebi) and i know many people who do especially when they are on high cycle doses."
"By combining both your bp is in check, you get renal protection, likely help prevent cardiac remodeling and increase cardiac NO production.. yet no one seems to routinely use them outside of myself ( i use for health reasons not high cycle dose reasons, i did switch from losartan to telmi) or a few ppl i know who are really concerned about there future health and are up to date on how to make sure they are as healthy as possible. One day i wish id see this stuff on ppls normal lists."
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Im ok with giving recommendations anonymously which is the point of my having an account that doesnt have my real name. If i ever create an account where i use my real name I wouldnt give specific advice and would stick with concepts.You would probably know its me based on me never really proof reading what i type and my style of just free form typing..at least you know im not copy pasting anything lol
If you do not have any predisposing risk factors and are legit healthy meaning below probably 13% bodyfat, eat a healthy diet with low sugars, healthy fats, fiber, veggies and some fruits etc and doing legit cardio on a regular basis then I would suggest the following
While on cycle and through pct take an arb like either losartan or telmisartan ( i recently switiched to telmi) at maybe something like 20mg telmi daily. remember...**i am making this shit up based on my personal opinion**you wont find studies with bbers, aas, and these dosing regimines. I feel this to be enough to break up the RAS and hopefully prevent some cardiac remodeling.
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This is something I care a lot about. In fact its probably what I want to be remembered most for in this area when im long gone.
I have certs in both cardiac ct of advanced proficiency ( CoAP) and cardiology cert. Also have publications as they relate to triglycerides, plaque formation and populations using ct and mri.
Bodybuilders are retarded sometimes. Those who compete do what they have to do but most people do not compete or at least dont make a living out of it. Yet they still do so many things only living in the superficial present and not caring about their health years from now.
Let me be clear... AAS are not as harmful as they are deemed to be however there is use, abuse and really fucking smart use. People on this thread are talking about reversal... ok thats great but more importantly we should be talking about prevention.
I have posted so much on this over the years on different boards and i really dont feel like copy pasting it and looking for it but ill make this short and sweet.
1. Stop with the orals. No reason to crush your HDL. Think long term. Also no need to be using such strong androgens for long periods of time. I have nothing to say to those use tren at high doses for months on end.
2. Diet: See previous posts from people on this thread. Yes it plays a sigificant role but you can have the best diet in the world but if your HDL is 8 from winny and tren it wont matter.
3. Cardio. RUN! Do legit cardio. And not just once a week or just during the summer. Dont give me that crap " ohh but gotgame im bulking so i cant run" . Dont be retarded, be healthy so you are on here posting for years to come.
4. Dont going to post everything that i have over the years but consider using low dose ARBs or ACEi when on gear to prevent cardiac remodeling. I would suggest 25mg daily of losartan or equivalent .
5. Take aspirin low dose unless contraindicated for numerous benefits.
6. Steroids can DIRECTLY cause cardiac remodeling. Don't bother sending me links to athletes and having bigger hearts... that is a different type of hypertrophy that is not the kind i am referring to as AAS induced. Some of it can probably be reversed after a long time off but not all of it. So keep your doses low, cycle, and use an ARB
7. I have yet to see anyone with a calcium score over 400 make any signficant improvements on direct CT, ever. They have made cath improvements. Someone mentioned nucs stress test earlier..... that wont show you a darn thing. Had a patient who had rock solid normal nucs test on friday and came back on wednesday with a stemi and had 80% occlusion of one of the LAD diags. Its a crap test for prognostic value, it has physiologic value.
8. Keep your blood pressure in check. It is NOT ok for it to ever be elevated. I cant stress this enough. Dont give me this genetic nonsense. Sure for SOME people its genetic but most people can control it with diet/lifestyle modifications so stop being lazy. The arbs should help that too.
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Angiotensin receptor blockers and angiotensin convert enzyme inhibitors. Used in patients with MI's but studies have been done showing it can prevent AAS induced remodeling. Granted they werent huge studies but they pass my face validity test as to their MOA and how AAS induced cardiac hypertrophy and at times hyperplasia.
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Do you think Losartan is better than Telmisartan?
From a pure "performance" standpoint i used to recommend telmisartan because of the ppar gamma MOA which makes it pretty awesome for bodybuilders. I backed off my recommendation a little bit about two years ago when they were releasing the info on ppar gamma drugs and cancer and that gave me pause so i started recommending losaratan. To be perfectly honest I havent looked up the new data for ppar gammas and whether or not that panned out to be true. If it turned out to be BS then I would favor telmi.
EDIT: To be clear at the time there were studies looking at glitazones and cancer and some warnings were issue and some drugs were pulled. I tend to be very cautious with recomendations so in order to make sure it wasnt from ppar gamma and was some other property of those drugs I backed off on my telsmisartan recommendation at that time. It was probably overly cautious as i think recent studies showed it to be fine but i havent looked into it that much recently. If they did then it would probably be favored as that MOA is great for what people call " glucose disposal agents" on top of preventing cardiac remodeling.
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Nebivolol, while it might be good at a reducing BP any remodeling agent needs to work on the angiotensin system as that is what the studies looked at showing AAS induced changes. While beta blocks are sometimes still used in MI patients its to reduce the O2 demand after an MI not to directly reduced remodeling. Maybe you were thinking nebi because you NO levels...remember we arent trying to just dilate vessels we are trying to create new ones. I just used VEGF as one example of what you want to achieve. Will having slightly increase NO levels in the heart over a period of time increase local angiogenesis...maybe..probably but lets work on trying to prevent remodeling and use natural vegf production at this time until there are more studies done. Also keep in mind that when you look at studies and NO and angiogensis..is it natural NO production or artificial, the difference is the setting by which it is produced. Any setting that requires increased O2 demand ( cardio) will cause an increase i NO BUt it will also cause VEGF locally to increase for a short period of time, so its not neccessarily the NO that is beneficial its the state that caused the NO increase.
In the next 10 years there will be new drugs to combat this. Spoke with an MD PHD out of philly last week and she had just demonstrated last month the use of microRNAs to complete reverse/prevent cardiac remodeling in the acute seting. Granted her work is catheter direct but give it time.
You want to increase LOCAL vegf levels. That is what is important. It takes years and years of hard work to do this but it can save your life to have some decent collaterals if you have an MI. Granted if your 3 vessels are all crap from years of steroid abuse and "bulking" then theres not much to be done anyway
.gif "IP Gear")
awesome then don't use it! I sure the fuck am though
