Just something that gets lost in this whole deal that I feel is utmost importance..

[tokon]

Fantastic postings DC, thanks for sharing your knowledge.

 

[totalrecomp]

Bottom line is TRT/HRT is still enhanced. So idk why some of these guys act like this is news or incredible. Especially if you are doing advanced techniques like frequent injections and adding GH etc. This is not natural at all, not even close. You don't have the ups and downs you would, instead your keeping your levels elevated all the time. It's apples to oranges. If these guys were to completely come off, they would lose a lot more. That's why TRT is a good approach.

I agree to an extent considering that what some consider TRT/HRT varries wildly. I would say though that if you were in the 600-700ng/dl prior to use and you keep it at the same level via TRT that is as close to Natural as one can be while using a non-natural protocol. Of course the TRT might be at "natural levels" but I agree using an exo source of TRT is not natural and if this same person were to go OFF completely aka totally natural the mass/condition would take a hit.

As far as those asking how long it takes I would think this would vary wildly from one person to another. I know I sit at 230 almost permanently it seems. How I look and feel at that weight is what changes. I can eat shit and look like shit or being firing on all cylinders and look great at 230, for me I am still a fat bastard by PM standards lol.

This same thing applies to being lean IMO as well. Sit at a leaner condition for 10 years and it will hold much better than if you were only dieted down for say 3 months.

 

[KillerStack]

As far as what someone considers TRT versus someone elses idea of it....I consider it this personally. Normal total testosterone is considered 250-1100 ng/dl...anyone who places in that range with their testosterone therapy in my book is doing TRT

I don't care what someone calls themselves or what is or isn't true TRT. But TRT offers several advantages over relying on your own natural testosterone, even if naturally high. For example, your test won't dip even if you are overtraining or overreaching. There are no ups and downs over the day. Like the cyclist doing tiny T doses during races to combat the natural lowering during enormously stressing races. Then you get the RB and HB boost which is performance enhancing to a degree.
An athlete will get an advantage from TRT even if he had high healthy levels before starting.

 

[Markosterone]

Only time I asstablished a "new" set point that didnt come off even when i stopped training was after i did 6 month run of Rips years ago...
Hgh have made me heavier and that size wont come off as easy...
When i was cycling roids only, i always drop when getting off pct. Of course never ended up at my "pre-roid" weight, but thats because i did everything i could to keep size and strenght during the off time.

Nowdays, 200mg test E "TRT", keeps me alot heavier then i ever was compered to my "pre-hgh" weight.

I have several friends that stopped using gear and went all natural, only one of them still has a changed body composition. Even years after not training... he did a run of hgh same time i did and grew to a monster that cycle.
The others lost it all...

Call it new set point, id call it my 200mg test e weight point...
I belive in muscle memory, but i also know if i drop my criuse i will drop weight and mucscle.
Doesn't mean you cant go natural, and have a new set point based on what the body can hold naturally.. but i think has to do with the fact that you streching the body and giving it unnatural possibilities to pass the limits it had naturally..

 

[Landmonster]

HCG

Dante,


How much weekly HCG do you recommend to a bodybuilder cruising on TRT?

Let's say he is in his 30s or early 40s, and wants to feel good, and stay healthy, and keep his joints functioning.


1) Are you saying this HCG use needs to be a life-long protocol for a juicer, to keep healthy joints?

2) Does it have any positive or negative impact on muscle building? (if you kept all else same, but added some HCG)

 

[suppdude]

Dante,





How much weekly HCG do you recommend to a bodybuilder cruising on TRT?



Let's say he is in his 30s or early 40s, and wants to feel good, and stay healthy, and keep his joints functioning.





1) Are you saying this HCG use needs to be a life-long protocol for a juicer, to keep healthy joints?



2) Does it have any positive or negative impact on muscle building? (if you kept all else same, but added some HCG)

Not Dante but he’s answered this:

1) 500iu a week
2) help retain muscle tissue


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[LK3]

x2

Rambo i posted my bloods i did last year on 250 mg test cyp ( in kaladryn's thread on DIM) and i remember thinking to me then just look at my test levels , total and free at just 1 ml of shit , nearly triple the range! Do I really need more then say 250 mg test ? i thought there is plenty of test circulating in my body to grow and repair muscle all I need is to focus on training and diet and that's it.

The great results i saw kind of put me off from running high test as i felt i might be overdoing it unnecessarily.

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different ppl respond very different.
real trt for most would be keeping test in normal ranges.

every time i test myself on real trt i am in a totally normal range even low, one of the last was 350ish, yes it had been several days since last admin, and running on the bottom end of my spectrum but the idea of "trt" is to stay "normal"

no one here is "normal" lol


150ish mg tp keeps me in the 350-550 range

 

[LK3]

the collagen thing is very real and something i think we did not know about before, i came accross the stuff MA posted a few years back and feel it has probably had an impact on me.

i am dead set against breeding so i personally like the bc aspect of trt but do not like injuries.

i also am not sure about living on gh, again just personal reasons though i do think many take gh too lightly.

other aas can help but they obviously have other side effect.

no good answers just food for though.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

I don't care what someone calls themselves or what is or isn't true TRT. But TRT offers several advantages over relying on your own natural testosterone, even if naturally high. For example, your test won't dip even if you are overtraining or overreaching. There are no ups and downs over the day. Like the cyclist doing tiny T doses during races to combat the natural lowering during enormously stressing races. Then you get the RB and HB boost which is performance enhancing to a degree.
An athlete will get an advantage from TRT even if he had high healthy levels before starting.

I dont get it. I dont think anyone is arguing against that point. When someone starts "juicing" is the very day they should probably start thinking about the impairment that "juicing" is going to have on their body.....which pretty much means people should start thinking about the very moment they start juicing that "this decision longterm can very well mean that I am never at this natural hormonal level again and it could mean TRT for the rest of my life"

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Dante,


How much weekly HCG do you recommend to a bodybuilder cruising on TRT?

Let's say he is in his 30s or early 40s, and wants to feel good, and stay healthy, and keep his joints functioning.


1) Are you saying this HCG use needs to be a life-long protocol for a juicer, to keep healthy joints?

2) Does it have any positive or negative impact on muscle building? (if you kept all else same, but added some HCG)

a) usually...250-500ius injected on 3 off shot days a week (usually)
b) among other things like collagen and stretching I think it would be a good idea yea
c)postive yes, negative no

 

[warlock]

a) usually...250-500ius injected on 3 off shot days a week (usually)
b) among other things like collagen and stretching I think it would be a good idea yea
c)postive yes, negative no

Dante,

What if TRT is injected daily (small dosages)? How'd you incorporate the HCG?

Thanks

 

[Landmonster]

a) usually...250-500ius injected on 3 off shot days a week (usually)
b) among other things like collagen and stretching I think it would be a good idea yea
c)postive yes, negative no

To clarify...

500ius divided into 3 shots? or 500 iu x 3 shots? Big difference!

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

To clarify...

500ius divided into 3 shots? or 500 iu x 3 shots? Big difference!

hypothetically if you injected test on mon wen fri
you would inject hcg on sun tues thurs at 250-500ius per (usually there isnt a one size fits all dose...someone needs to figure out that themselves)

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Dante,

What if TRT is injected daily (small dosages)? How'd you incorporate the HCG?

Thanks

I dont think there is a set way of doing it....you could do hcg every day or you could do hcg every other day

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Killerstack you are kind of arguing semantics here. Would you or I as 45 year old natural men ever have a total testosterone of 1100? No we wouldnt not in the least...it would probably be more like 200 to 452 and it would have ebbs and flows like you said at times of stress, overtraining, lack of sleep, alcohol, etc etc etc....Im not arguing that point at all....TRT is the "poor mans juicing" no matter how you look at it....and I "personally" am ok with that because with that comes (good bloodwork usually), a much higher maintenance of muscle mass, and etc etc etc.

I personally draw parameters of 252-1100 with it because you got to make a cuttoff somewhere....or people are going to really take advantage of the situation with TRT. Here Ill give you an example: Here is an IFBB pro's bloodwork 3 months after he got off.....and was "on TRT".... you and I both know those numbers are still "on" and thats outside the parameters of TRT

 

[11111]

I can ok you...pm me

Thanks DC, really appreciated. PMing you now.

 

[alfresco]

Just an example

. . . Would you or I as 45 year old natural men ever have a total testosterone of 1100? . . .

Hey DC,

Well . . . I have a cousin, over the age of 45, had his testosterone checked
and it was over 1100. Has never taken steroids in life, probably could not
spell the word if his life depended on it, is (was) a personal trainer but looks
like crap, like he never lifted a weight in his life. Clients the same way.

His high testosterone is anomaly for sure but do doctors have him take
something to lower it? No.

Funny thing is, if it wasn’t so sad; he just licensed his personal training studio
out (super slow . . . super stupid I know) and moved his family out of state.
My wife did a backpacking trip with him in Nevada last summer and said he
looks worse than ever, even hired a personal trainer (ss again ) to train him.
The blind leading the blindfolded. Go figure.

 

[Landmonster]

Hey DC,

Well . . . I have a cousin, over the age of 45, had his testosterone checked
and it was over 1100. Has never taken steroids in life, probably could not
spell the word if his life depended on it, is (was) a personal trainer but looks
like crap, like he never lifted a weight in his life. Clients the same way.

His high testosterone is anomaly for sure but do doctors have him take
something to lower it? No.

Funny thing is, if it wasn’t so sad; he just licensed his personal training studio
out (super slow . . . super stupid I know) and moved his family out of state.
My wife did a backpacking trip with him in Nevada last summer and said he
looks worse than ever, even hired a personal trainer (ss again ) to train him.
The blind leading the blindfolded. Go figure.

He could be taking something, and not telling you.

 

[alfresco]

don’t believe so

He could be taking something, and not telling you.

Landmonster,

I suppose anything is possible, but in this case very very
unlikely. Have known him my entire life, not that kind
of guy. I believe him.

We would take weekly 3 -4 hour hikes in the mountains
where I live for many years and talk about everything
including my TRT and his training philosophy. That is
when our test levels came up. (I have seen his ‘test’
results because I had a hard time believing him. Plus
he fathered triplets, go figure.) I have tried to persuade
him away from his training techniques, but I never
could. He was so brainwashed on super slow training
it was hard to fathom. Anyway . . . he is a good and
honest man and would never take testosterone or
anything else for that matter. His test levels are / were
a real outlier. And his physique showed no outward
signs of enhancement.

 

[Macrocupcake124]

https://www.facebook.com/dante.trudel.5/posts/10154177173201053



and bottom of page onto the next page



http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...cle-forum/135121-wtf-did-i-do-my-stomach.html

Look into UC II as well.


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