Keto and Arrhythmias

[maldorf]

I do yea, I have I guess what at this point would be called mild cardiomyopathy. I also have inflammatory bowel disease so over the years I've become somewhat neurotic when it comes to health issues.

And I agree with what you said above, though for me both times I've done keto in the past year it was accompanied by these bizarre increases in heart rate and bounding pulse.

I would say that if you have had that happen several times now then I would just forget about that kind of diet.

I might mention that the last time I did a fast I ended up having to have my defibrillator fire off the next morning after I had my first meal. I don't know if it was the shock of having a large meal, too much sodium all at once, I don't know. We went out for dinner and I had a good size meal at a Mexican restaurant. I felt great during the actual fast though. Last time I mess with that. No more fasts for me.

 

[Bigd50]

I think Matt Porter ran in to some similar issues while on Keto.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

I would say that if you have had that happen several times now then I would just forget about that kind of diet.

I might mention that the last time I did a fast I ended up having to have my defibrillator fire off the next morning after I had my first meal. I don't know if it was the shock of having a large meal, too much sodium all at once, I don't know. We went out for dinner and I had a good size meal at a Mexican restaurant. I felt great during the actual fast though. Last time I mess with that. No more fasts for me.

I hear ya, just a shame because it seems to help quite a bit with my gut.

That is interesting about your story. I will say it seems my HR goes up after and in the hour or two following my meal more than other times (though sometimes other times as well), but I never hear of anyone saying getting too much sodium on keto is an issue so that seems unlikely to me.

I would imagine you'd be ok with fasting if you had a more gradual introduction to foods/sodium.

 

[maldorf]

I would imagine you'd be ok with fasting if you had a more gradual introduction to foods/sodium.

I think that would be the trick, but when that sucker goes off it is like hell on earth. One of the worst things I go through. Scares the shit out of me and I feel like I am going to die for sure. Just not worth it to me.

I think for someone that is healthy though, a short 48 hour fast is safe and healthy if done once in awhile. I think you could do a 24 hour fast each week. Just make sure you take in enough salts. Before the heart attack if I drank some beef and chicken broth during the fast I was fine. I was able to just eat a normal meal and not have heart problems too.

A big meal does certainly put more load on the heart and will increase the rate in even healthy people. I think I mentioned also that for me now if I eat desert foods like cake and ice cream it will really screw me up, guess too much sugar.

 

[Stewie]

Ironically this was just published.

Low-Carb Diet Tied to Common Heart Rhythm Disorder
Study suggests using caution when restricting carbohydrates for weight loss
Mar 06, 2019

https://www.acc.org/about-acc/press...arb-diet-tied-to-common-heart-rhythm-disorder


Will note tho:

Zhuang said that while the research shows an association, it cannot prove cause and effect.

 

[Chipper Jones78]

Ironically this was just published.

Low-Carb Diet Tied to Common Heart Rhythm Disorder
Study suggests using caution when restricting carbohydrates for weight loss
Mar 06, 2019

https://www.acc.org/about-acc/press...arb-diet-tied-to-common-heart-rhythm-disorder


Will note tho:

Thanks for sharing....that is ironic.

It's all over the web.

It's definitely a headline catcher this morn.

This will be interesting, however, like Stewie said, no cause in effect.

 

[Chipper Jones78]

Low-carb diet tied to common heart rhythm disorder

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/03/190306081652.htm

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Eh yea, not very convincing.

"Researchers then divided participants into three groups representing low, moderate and high carbohydrate intake, reflecting diets in which carbohydrates comprised less than 44.8 percent of daily calories, 44.8 to 52.4 percent of calories, and more than 52.4 percent of calories, respectively."

OK so 44% of calories coming from carbs is low carb? And 53% is high carb? Silly.


"Participants reporting low carbohydrate intake were the most likely to develop AFib. These participants were 18 percent more likely to develop AFib than those with moderate carbohydrate intake and 16 percent more likely to develop AFib than those with high carbohydrate intake."

Not that significant and there was actually a smaller difference between low vs high compared to low vs moderate (which I simply take to mean not that significant since 16% vs 18% is splitting hairs).


"Several potential mechanisms could explain why restricting carbohydrates might lead to AFib, Zhuang said. One is that people eating a low-carbohydrate diet tend to eat fewer vegetables, fruits and grains -- foods that are known to reduce inflammation. Without these foods people may experience more inflammation, which has been linked with AFib."

True, and keep in mind a ketogenic diet is generally seen as anti-inflammatory. Lowers activity of the NLRP3 inflammasome and decreases TNF-alpha levels.

 

[danieltx]

I emailed the study to Dave Palumbo and this was his response:

it's a very weak study....they don't know why they're seeing the results they are...........and their hypotheses are ridiculous......... I don't think it's the diet; it's the population of people they're following....... fad dieters.

 

[Pissbrainiac259]

Do you have any anxiety/stress?

Get a baseline CHEM-10 (make sure the the Calcium is "IONIZED CALCIUM" b/c that's the Ca that is physiologically important). Then go from you can replete your serum electroytes w/o risking any major adverse tachyarrhythmias. Don't they offer this type of simple test at those walk-in "Any Blood Test" centers?

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Man I really may have to stop this diet. I'm sitting here right now with a resting heart rate of 90. I used to routinely be at 40-60bpm.

All of my electrolytes tested with a CMP are normal, and usually middle of the range.

 

[Pissbrainiac259]

Man I really may have to stop this diet. I'm sitting here right now with a resting heart rate of 90. I used to routinely be at 40-60bpm.

All of my electrolytes tested with a CMP are normal, and usually middle of the range.

There are a few places online where you can get a 3-lead or even a 6-lead ECG rhythm strip monitor. The ones you commonly see in the clinics and hospitals are 12-lead, which are the best but a 3-lead or 6-lead ECG rhythm monitor is better than no rhythm monitor. It should be noted that the sensitivity and specificity of the 3-lead and the 6-lead rhythm monitors are inferior to that of the 12-lead version. But having a 12-24 hour ECG rhythm strip and a friend who knows how to accurately interpret them probably goes a long way in mitigating your current fears.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

There are a few places online where you can get a 3-lead or even a 6-lead ECG rhythm strip monitor. The ones you commonly see in the clinics and hospitals are 12-lead, which are the best but a 3-lead or 6-lead ECG rhythm monitor is better than no rhythm monitor. It should be noted that the sensitivity and specificity of the 3-lead and the 6-lead rhythm monitors are inferior to that of the 12-lead version. But having a 12-24 hour ECG rhythm strip and a friend who knows how to accurately interpret them probably goes a long way in mitigating your current fears.

I've had many ECGs over the years, they've all been normal. I've also worn a holter monitor 2x for two weeks and everything was normal. I've had one ECG show some PACs but that was it.

I don't think I have an abnormal rhythm, I just don't think it's good that I've got this fast resting heart rate and bounding pulse at times with a keto diet.

Right now, having woken up recently and not having eaten yet my RHR is 60bpm but later in the day it can get up to 80-95bpm.

 

[Pissbrainiac259]

Although less common in the relatively younger ( < 55 y/o), exercising, and non-morbidly obese population, it is not unreasonable to consider the possibility of an underlying intermittent transient arrhythmia (abnormal heart rhythm w/HR between 60-100 BPM) +/- tachyarrhythmia (abnormal heart rhythm w/HR >/= 100 BPM.

With regards to PAC, quantification of "some" with regards to # of PAC(s) and frequency of occurrence in # of ECGs is quality intel.

The only thing recommended is that everyone do his/her best to obtain hard copies of all personal medical records regardless of copy type e.g. faxed copies, photocopies, printed copies, old school film copies, and actual imaging (static or motion) copied onto a CD. You never know whom you may befriend down the road.

 

[Pissbrainiac259]

Ironically this was just published.

Low-Carb Diet Tied to Common Heart Rhythm Disorder
Study suggests using caution when restricting carbohydrates for weight loss
Mar 06, 2019

https://www.acc.org/about-acc/press...arb-diet-tied-to-common-heart-rhythm-disorder


Will note tho:

While the N value of 14,000 subjects and two decades of f/u are impressive, without being able to read and interpret the entire study design, methodologies, statistical parameters (e.g. p-value, Confidence Interval, Hazard Ratio, Relative Risk Ratio, Odds Ratio, Sensitivity, Specificity, and dozens of other stats schmats Bullshitology), the type(s) of stats graph(s) and/or "curve(s)", this study which highlights vague percentages with vague terms is, thus far, of virtually ZERO statistical significance. :banghead:

 

[maldorf]

While the N value of 14,000 subjects and two decades of f/u are impressive, without being able to read and interpret the entire study design, methodologies, statistical parameters (e.g. p-value, Confidence Interval, Hazard Ratio, Relative Risk Ratio, Odds Ratio, Sensitivity, Specificity, and dozens of other stats schmats Bullshitology), the type(s) of stats graph(s) and/or "curve(s)", this study which highlights vague percentages with vague terms is, thus far, of virtually ZERO statistical significance. :banghead:

Yeah, I want to see the statistical analysis and other parameters of the study before I accept the results.

 

[Michael30]

I don't enjoy doing keto, but it really seems to help my GI issues. If it didn't, I'd drop it right away but right now it seems to be helping control it and if I can't control it with diet then the next step is some really harsh medication.



Hey man. Do you think this is the only / most likely cause? It seems that's what most people say, dehydration and lack of electrolytes. I feel like I'm drinking a ton though and taking in a lot of sodium, as well as recently adding magnesium which hasn't seemed to help.

I would add potassium as well but am cautious about that since I'm on Valsartan.

Try running bpc-157 orally for 4 to 6 weeks and see if that helps your stomach issues. I have stomach issues too. And can no longer take oral steroids. But when i run bpc-157 it helps my stomach that i can actually use orals if i wanted. I just discovered this recently. But besides the orals it just greatly helps my stomach. No more gas, stomach aches, acud reflux. Id atleast try it

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Try running bpc-157 orally for 4 to 6 weeks and see if that helps your stomach issues. I have stomach issues too. And can no longer take oral steroids. But when i run bpc-157 it helps my stomach that i can actually use orals if i wanted. I just discovered this recently. But besides the orals it just greatly helps my stomach. No more gas, stomach aches, acud reflux. Id atleast try it

Generally speaking I don't use anything from UGL anymore. I take my prescribed TRT and that's it.


Maldorf (or anyone interested...) I actually decided to try fasting longer and am currently 2.5-3 days in. I'll end the fast tonight or tomorrow morning but I actually feel great. I'm sure in part it's due to already being in ketosis and previously shoving food down so this was an easy transition.