Keto Diet and the Truth.

[Dieselboss]

I've been following a ketogenic for decades and then I started to incorporate intermittent fasting with my keto diet 5 years ago.

I'm quite possibly in the best shape of my life because of this at 45 years old.

No one is more pro keto than me, I was doing 'bodyopus" before Dan Duchaine wrote his book... and actually he wrote some my experiences in his book. I'm an old G keto and knew those 1990s gurus..... and we were doing these things way before anyone put it on paper other than Dr Atkins and Dr Depasquale.

I even own a keto brand and LLC. All that being said is just to let you know how Pro keto I am but at the same time I'm anti bullshit.

At the end of the day it's no better than a regular diet .....40 years of science has showed that calories in versus calories out is the main predictor of body fatness.

In a medical ward setting and in studies you'll see there's no difference between low fat and low carb but in real world and after dealing with hundreds upon hundreds of clients over 25 years of training people, without a shadow of a doubt my keto clients have always done better and got leaner than my non keto clients. But that doesn't mean it's a better diet... it just means for certain people it's easier to follow...easier to.."eat less"..

The ketogenic just makes it easier to eat less and actually those who follow a rather higher protein ketogenic diet like me get the natural satiating effect of all that protein

The whole insulin theory-hypothesis of fat loss is utter bullshit. Its #energybalance. Ignore ANYTHING uttered by Dr Fung, Berg etc.

Most of the dipshits in keto Facebook groups are doing therapeutic medical ketosis and stuff themselves with oil and butter and are still fat.. it's not keto for fat loss and body recomposition that I've been following for decades.. I consume 250 +gm of protein (gluconeogenesis is demand driven so please don't fall for that stupid myth either)...carbs under 25 gm and I vary my fat intake between 50 to 125 gm a day and then of course I carb up periodically via ckd

I eat 1 to 2 meals a day max. (IF)

I couldn't imagine any other way of eating..for me...

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I was waiting for you to chime in brother!

I remember a while back you mentioned toying with tkd as well? Did you not like that as much, say compared to ckd?

 

[bighank]

Has ANY top olympian competitors done keto diets? i am a prett big fan of the sport and foloow it fairly well. i cant name 1 bodybuilder in top 10-15 guys in the world that do a keto diet. but all you low level guys think its best lmao.
can anyone name ONE keto genetic guy that became or is a pro? i cant think of one. jay cutler ate shit ton of carb-s. ronnie did too. :lightbulb:
-F2S

I really dont think pros have to do keto to stay lean,with the amount of drugs they use .for the average gym rat that uses low to moderate drugs,I think keto is better for fat loss. I've done keto for a while,and ut worked well for me.now a days I just do low carb,round 50 most days and 100 on training days.it allows me to look a bit more full.

 

[NEMSZ]

I really dont think pros have to do keto to stay lean,with the amount of drugs they use .for the average gym rat that uses low to moderate drugs,I think keto is better for fat loss. I've done keto for a while,and ut worked well for me.now a days I just do low carb,round 50 most days and 100 on training days.it allows me to look a bit more full.

Pffffttt have you seen some of the cycles people are on here and they look like the average gym rat? Lol There’s guys on here running grams of gear and cruising on hundreds of MGs of compounds year round who look like fitness models at best for some of them... I see guys who couldn’t place top 5 in a regional/local show posting insulin protocols etc lol it’s a fucking joke..

But as for what you said, and to agree with NYMuscle, science can show whatever it wants but for whatever reason I’ve seen and experienced better fat loss on Keto.. The trick is carbing up correctly and salt/water intake to have a better full look..

 

[Ryan1007]

Can't say I run a "keto diet" But I do restrict my carbs and use an intermittent fasting approach and combining the two has allowed me to lose weight and maintain the weight loss better than any other approach I've tried.

 

[NY Muscle]

I was waiting for you to chime in brother!



I remember a while back you mentioned toying with tkd as well? Did you not like that as much, say compared to ckd?

Tkd effects is mostly in ones head. It will never compare to real carb intake like ckd.

Also 2 to 3 grams sodium pre workout blows away any carbs like tkd. Its not even a comparison.

I dont like touching any carbs unless its a carb day. I train absolutely fasted and have for decades.

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[NY Muscle]

The reason why probably 99.9% of professional body builders do not utilize keto is because it's extremely suboptimal for muscle gain and muscle maintenance compared to a high protein moderate/high carbohydrate intake diet.

Also pros:


Take a shit ton of drugs

Often do HOURS of cardio pre contest

Have great genetics

Goals are not health, longevity and being rather lean all year round.

And also these guys are PROS so mentally they are on point with diet, training, sleep, macros 24/7. Hence why they at the pro level. They dont "need" keto so to say.

In my opinion a keto diet is better suited for people like me who have emotional issues with food and can't be trusted around carbs

I love being in ketosis and fasting, it just suits my body type and behavior much better than higher carb diets.

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[Elvia1023]

The underlying reality is that we are not designed to eat tons of food without adversely affecting health. No animal species eats in excess, there is no such possibility in nature.

Exactly. I think this is the most important factor. It's simply not good for us consuming tonnes of food. In no way is it good for us being 250 and consuming 5000 cals (even if all good food) wanting to be 260, 270 etc. It will only lead to health problems eventually. In fact when people diet on much lower cals but of crap food their blood work may even improve. That goes against what we should follow (quality over quantity) but highlights the importance in the amount of overall cals we consume. Obviously no one should be eating crap all the time and should be consuming nutrient dense foods.

As NYMuscle posted some people just find it easier to diet on no carbs and that's why keto works for so many people. For most bodybuilders it's not needed but can still be extremely useful especially in the short term. Guys just do what suits you the best and go for it. I think for health limited calories and fasting is much more important that what macros are consumed during the day. However I as posted earlier I personally prefer good protein/fats but added carbs in the form of mainly fruit and wholegrains.

 

[Beti ona]

The trick is carbing up correctly and salt/water intake to have a better full look..

Matt Porter has repeated and defended this idea in more than one occasion. Personally I have tested loading protocols with water and sodium and (without carbs, with carbs loads (great and small quantities) and fat loads (great and small quantities)).

Water and sodium will help me to fill up without spilling and I always have the best condition, if I load carbs, I will gain more size/plenity, but the abd will be shit. When I load with fats its an intermediate stage, my veins seem to explode more, there is more fullness than with water and sodium but there is less definition.

If we talk about pumping and energies for training, I have NEVER noticed any differences between being in keto or eating carbs before and after training. I still like to vary the diet according to the training system, if I go with basic routines and free weights, I will not have carbs except some fruits, if I go with more series, more reps, more volume, more machines and cables, less rest between sets. .. I'll have carbs before and/or after training.

 

[FK86]

NY Muscle,

With your keto/IF protocol I take it you don't consume carbs post-workout? I know Ori Hofmekler advises CPWO and states it's better for insulin sensitivity, GH release, and fat burning following a workout.

I've done CPWO before and am doing it again as I'm in a deficit. I know pre/peri/post workout nutrition is a huge deal to a lot of people, but I honestly never noticed any better results with those protocols. Like you, I've gone through long periods where I trained fasted due to a school or work schedule. I do take in BCAA's and citrulline malate which probably help, but I definitely prefer not having carbs pre-workout as I feel much better. And post-workout, as stated above, I never noticed any of these incredible results some people rave about by having tons of carbs.

 

[Chipper Jones78]

I'm all about CKD now, I get the best of both worlds.

I dont carb load every weekend, more so if I FEEL flat and when I do load, it's oats, beans, lentils, fruit and perhaps a gatorade here and there.

Cant see myself switching.

Bloodwork is A+ (for now anyhow)

Even when juicing, I'll still use the CKD approach.

 

[NY Muscle]

NY Muscle,



With your keto/IF protocol I take it you don't consume carbs post-workout? I know Ori Hofmekler advises CPWO and states it's better for insulin sensitivity, GH release, and fat burning following a workout.



I've done CPWO before and am doing it again as I'm in a deficit. I know pre/peri/post workout nutrition is a huge deal to a lot of people, but I honestly never noticed any better results with those protocols. Like you, I've gone through long periods where I trained fasted due to a school or work schedule. I do take in BCAA's and citrulline malate which probably help, but I definitely prefer not having carbs pre-workout as I feel much better. And post-workout, as stated above, I never noticed any of these incredible results some people rave about by having tons of carbs.

My macros for keto:

Protein - 200 to 250 grams
Carbs - under 25 grams
Fat - varies daily, 50 to 100 grams


I don't like to use percentages but my macro % end up looking like: (as a percent of calories):

47.5% fat
47.5% protein
5% carbs.


Keep in mind percentages mean nothing... for example, use those % I just listed above and eat 10,000 cals a day = not good for fat loss.


My intermittent fasting routine is as follows:

Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday I do 18:6. -> 12 noon and around 5/5:30pm are my only 2 meals.

Wednesday and Saturday I do a 24 hour fast and just eat once at dinner. (OMAD)

Some weeks I'll do 2-4 OMAD days, just depends on my mood and schedule.

Once in a while I'll do a 48 hour fast.

I train fasted in the AM around 7:30am so my "post workout" meal is no sooner than 12 noon and on some days its 5pm (OMAD).

I drink/consume nothing but water during my fasting window.

Sometimes I take a pre workout stim/pump powder or I'll just go with a few grams of sodium and thats it. Sometimes I take nothing.

Weve been sold a bullshit lie for decades about the "anabolic window" and self proclaimed gurus keep pushing this silliness.

For those still worried about not consuming food/protein right after your workout:

Protein timing:

Exercise improves the muscle protein synthetic response to protein ingestion. Therefore, it has been *suggested* that protein intake immediately post-exercise is more anabolic than protein ingestion at different time points.

Probably the best evidence to support the concept of protein timing is a study which showed that protein ingestion immediately after exercise was more effective (hence *ideal*) than protein ingestion 3 h post-exercise (though this study used the 2 pool arterio-venous method which is NOT a great measurement of muscle protein synthesis)
(http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/280/6/E982.long).

In contrast, a different study observed no difference in MPS was found when essential amino acid were ingested 1 h or 3 h post-exercise
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10658002).

***In addition, resistance exercise enhances the muscle protein synthetic response to protein ingestion for at least 24 hour*** ie; thats a big "anabolic window"
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204).

It is certainly possible that the synergy between exercise and protein ingestion is the largest immediately post-exercise and then slowly declines in the next 24 h hour. *However*, these data suggest that there is *not a limited window of opportunity* during which protein is massively beneficial immediately post-exercise, that suddenly closes within a couple of hours. (oh that bro-anabolic-window)

Overall, *no clear benefit* to protein timing has been found in studies measuring muscle protein synthesis studies. As such studies are much more sensitive to detect potential anabolic effects compared to long-term studies measuring changes in muscle mass, it unlikely that long-term studies will observe benefits of protein timing.

In agreement, a meta-analysis concluded that protein supplementation ≤ 1 hour before and/or after resistance exercise improved muscle mass gains
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24299050).

***However***, this effect was largely explained by the fact that the protein supplementation INCREASED TOTAL PROTEIN INTAKE (hint OMAD ), rather than the specific timing of protein intake.

Cliff notes: as long as total protein intake for the day is adequate, don’t worry when/how often you eat it, you won't lose muscle.

Fasted training doesn’t cause muscle loss as long as your daily protein intake is sufficient. And this holds true for both fasted cardio and fasted weightlifting.

For example, one 2013 study analyzed Muslim bodybuilders who continued to train during Ramadan. They found that those who trained in a fasted state during Ramadan experienced **no differences** in body composition or muscle loss when compared to subjects who trained in a fed state.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3639860/

******
Some other info on fasted training - in this case cardio/endurance:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20452283

Results:

VO2 max: Remember VO2 max is a measure of the maximum volume of oxygen that an athlete can use.

Fasted: +9.7% increase
Fed: +2.5% increase

The fasted group increased their VO2Max significantly more than the fed group.

Muscle glycogen content: shows how much glucose is stored in the muscle.

The sample was taken from vastus lateralis, a portion of the quads, since this was the main muscle exercised during the cycling sessions.

Fasted: +54.7% increase
Fed: +2.9% increase

“The main findings of the present study were that: training in an overnight-fasted state enhances storage of muscle glycogen compared to training in the fed state; skeletal muscle of men and women respond differently in terms of oxidative activity to training in the fed and overnight-fasted state; and peak VO2 and peak power improved more when training in the fasted state compared to the fed state.”

*******
Also this one on fasting training (weights) shows fasted training affects the post-workout anabolic response to weight training more favorably than fed-state training.

www.springerlink.com/content/w8712615714k8150/

Weight training activates enzymes and switches on genes that up regulates protein synthesis in muscles. Out of these signaling mechanisms, the phosphorylation, “activity” plainly speaking, of p70s6 kinase may serve as an indicator of muscle growth, along with other myogenic transcription factors.


Results:

Results revealed that the those who trained in the fasted state had twice as high levels of p70s6k in comparison to those who trained in a fed state when measured at the one-hour mark post-workout. Other myogenic transcription factors were also higher at this point, though not quite as pronounced as p70s6k. At the four-hour mark, the differences between the two groups had evened out.

Among other things, increased levels of p70s6k may lead to a faster transport of amino acids into the muscle cell membranes, which should lead to a more rapid and potent anabolic response to post-workout nutrient ingestion.

In the fed training group - p70s6k and the other myogenic transcription factors were ***inhibited*** after a pre-workout meal.

It seems that the increased anabolic activity seen post-workout is a compensatory response to the increased catabolism that occurs during fasted state training.

So training on an empty stomach will cause greater catabolism in the short run, but will it yield greater gains in the long run? Who knows, but yet again this shows there is no negative to training in a fasted state and in *some* cases *may* be better? Who knows....

But yet again, no one is losing muscle training fasted. More broscience myth and fear mongering.

Add this to the recent (2018) small study (in women) that compared working out fasted vs fed, BOTH groups gained muscle:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1440244018303438

That being said, not losing muscle aside, ideally if gaining max muscle mass was the only goal then I would recommend a few meals a day and not just 1 or 2. You wont lose muscle my way but could be missing out on a more ideal design to gain max muscle possible and better digestion spreading intake over a few neals when eating tons of protein.

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[mr_meanor]

Keto changed my life. Might not be for everyone but it was a game changer for me. Im more lean than I have been in decades, my cholesterol levels are down and it has worked wonders for my inflammation. i have now switched to a targeted keto approach where i only consume carbs post workout and the only negative thing I have to say is that I am pissed I did not discover this 20 yrs ago when I was in my 20s.

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[mr_meanor]

Thomas Delauer has some pretty solid science based youtube videos on the topic

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[liquid_c]

Thomas Delauer has some pretty solid science based youtube videos on the topic

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IMO he is a schister who sells BS supplements like detox cleanses.

 

[NY Muscle]

Thomas Delauer has some pretty solid science based youtube videos on the topic

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Hes dumb as shit and makes stuff up, he doesn't even follow a keto diet. $$$$$$$$

 

[FK86]

NY Muscle,

Thanks for taking the time to write that.

My macros for keto:

Protein - 200 to 250 grams
Carbs - under 25 grams
Fat - varies daily, 50 to 100 grams

Based on those macros your daily calories are quite low, especially interspersed with your 24 and 48 hour fasts. I discovered your '10 Year Journey' thread about 2 months ago and it's inspiring. It actually made me re-evaluate my own physique goals. Are you still 175 lb? What made you want to walk around at near contest condition all the time and adopt the keto/fasting protocol as a lifestyle?

Weve been sold a bullshit lie for decades about the "anabolic window" and self proclaimed gurus keep pushing this silliness.

The Cell-Tech/Nitro-Tech "stack." I fell victim to that in my late teens in the early 2000's. I trained Max-OT at the time and AST promoted the same protocol.

Cliff notes: as long as total protein intake for the day is adequate, don’t worry when/how often you eat it, you won't lose muscle.

Fasted training doesn’t cause muscle loss as long as your daily protein intake is sufficient. And this holds true for both fasted cardio and fasted weightlifting.

The popularity and success of fasting definitely debunked post-workout nutrition myths. I knew a guy a who followed Ori's Warrior Diet. He trained at 6am and his eating window was 6pm-10pm. So he would get his 200g of protein in that time and his performance and strength weren't negatively affected at all.

With regard to fasted cardio; the people freaking out about muscle loss need to relax. Walking isn't going to destroy your muscle. Even if the cardio is of a higher intensity it won't. As I stated in a previous post, I take BCAA's and citrulline malate before weight sessions, but drop the BCAA's before cardio as leucine spikes insulin. I only keep the citrulline malate solely so my sweat doesn't smell as bad.

 

[NY Muscle]

NY Muscle,



Thanks for taking the time to write that.







Based on those macros your daily calories are quite low, especially interspersed with your 24 and 48 hour fasts. I discovered your '10 Year Journey' thread about 2 months ago and it's inspiring. It actually made me re-evaluate my own physique goals. Are you still 175 lb? What made you want to walk around at near contest condition all the time and adopt the keto/fasting protocol as a lifestyle?









The Cell-Tech/Nitro-Tech "stack." I fell victim to that in my late teens in the early 2000's. I trained Max-OT at the time and AST promoted the same protocol.









The popularity and success of fasting definitely debunked post-workout nutrition myths. I knew a guy a who followed Ori's Warrior Diet. He trained at 6am and his eating window was 6pm-10pm. So he would get his 200g of protein in that time and his performance and strength weren't negatively affected at all.



With regard to fasted cardio; the people freaking out about muscle loss need to relax. Walking isn't going to destroy your muscle. Even if the cardio is of a higher intensity it won't. As I stated in a previous post, I take BCAA's and citrulline malate before weight sessions, but drop the BCAA's before cardio as leucine spikes insulin. I only keep the citrulline malate solely so my sweat doesn't smell as bad.

Im about 182 to 184lbs, was 178lbs 2 weeks ago after a 4 day psmf stint....once I dip to mid 170s then I'm really getting peeled.


Towards the end of this past summer I had promised myself I no longer will do what I do every Winter season and get fluffy.

Last year really got outta hand, (lazy keto and way over maintenance cals). I went from like 178lbs up to 205lbs by the time Thanksgiving hit and I never wanted to do that ever again.... I just don't like the way it feels, I lack motivation in the gym and feel bloated all the time, even though i look like a freak and still leaner than 90% of the gym peeps....And then I have to almost crash diet and do tons of cardio to make up for it.

I'm too old for that shit. I dont want to ever get more than 10lbs over my "fighting weight" (near beach ready) which is about 178lbs

So this season I hovered in the 180s the whole time in fact I lost weight on each holiday party we had eating strict keto and various psmf days thrown in, 24hr fasts and sporadic 48hr fasts.

I have gotten more comments from random people about my physique in the past few months than I have in the 32 years I've been working out and I like that and always want to feel that way.

The reason I look so good this year is because I'm not forced to ruin all my muscle/progress with crazy dieting and cardio to malw up for winter eating so I'm able to do different things with my macros, carb up more often and continue to progress with slightl lbm gain while still losing fat.

Im also hypothyroid and on medication for decades and still have fat kid genetics from when I lost almost a 100 pounds many years ago. I don't require a lot of cals, 2200 is about my maintenance and I have to cut deep to lose fat.

I've been keto for decades so that's just part of me now it's nothing I'll ever change it's just how I am, and I added in fasting about 5 years ago and to be honest with you I enjoy that more than the keto, I wish I knew about it decades ago.



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[mr_meanor]

Hes dumb as shit and makes stuff up, he doesn't even follow a keto diet. $$$$$$$$

That is just not true. Yes he got rich on youtube, but he had sixpackabs.com which has 6+ million subs way before he started his keto channel. Your opinion is for sure not accurate. His information checks out and every video has scientific studies refrenced in the description and in the videos.

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[NY Muscle]

That is just not true. Yes he got rich on youtube, but he had sixpackabs.com which has 6+ million subs way before he started his keto channel. Your opinion is for sure not accurate. His information checks out and every video has scientific studies refrenced in the description and in the videos.

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Go back and warch a few more. Also hes not keto.

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[11111]

it's neither here nor there, but thomas delauer used to post on here. i'm trying to remember what his username was, but can't think of it..

i remember he was a big, bloated dude for a long time before he got lean..