Ketogenic Diet Endurance

[jahwobble]

Western States 100 ? Low Carber Wins Ultramarathon ? Steve Phinney and Jeff Volek Study | Me and My Diabetes

 

[kwal]

Western States 100 ? Low Carber Wins Ultramarathon ? Steve Phinney and Jeff Volek Study | Me and My Diabetes

Thanks for this! That was very interesting and motivating!

 

[kwal]

What type of endurance races are you training for Kwal?

I do a lot of triathlons (Olympic to Ironman, not many sprints) as well as adventure races. I enjoy any event that makes me push past the moment where my body says, "QUIT". Its not a "badass" complex or anything like that seeing as I rarely talk about my training or races. I just really enjoy pushing myself; makes me feel alive.

I am gearing up for a grueling 2-3 day straight event that will definitely test my mental and physical endurance.

As of right now, my body is in full ketosis judging by urine sticks. I have yet to bonk (hit the "wall") during any long runs. In the next coming weeks, I will be upping the miles A LOT. We will see what happens.

 

[stacked1]

I do a lot of triathlons (Olympic to Ironman, not many sprints) as well as adventure races. I enjoy any event that makes me push past the moment where my body says, "QUIT". Its not a "badass" complex or anything like that seeing as I rarely talk about my training or races. I just really enjoy pushing myself; makes me feel alive.

I am gearing up for a grueling 2-3 day straight event that will definitely test my mental and physical endurance.

As of right now, my body is in full ketosis judging by urine sticks. I have yet to bonk (hit the "wall") during any long runs. In the next coming weeks, I will be upping the miles A LOT. We will see what happens.

Awesome Kwal, looking forward to seeing how this goes for you. I"m a big proponent of lower carb diets so will be following this...

 

[ClaytonBigsby]

would really like to know what your current diet is like right now man!

I do a lot of triathlons (Olympic to Ironman, not many sprints) as well as adventure races. I enjoy any event that makes me push past the moment where my body says, "QUIT". Its not a "badass" complex or anything like that seeing as I rarely talk about my training or races. I just really enjoy pushing myself; makes me feel alive.

I am gearing up for a grueling 2-3 day straight event that will definitely test my mental and physical endurance.

As of right now, my body is in full ketosis judging by urine sticks. I have yet to bonk (hit the "wall") during any long runs. In the next coming weeks, I will be upping the miles A LOT. We will see what happens.

 

[kwal]

would really like to know what your current diet is like right now man!

I have been experimenting with total calories between 2200-3000 per day and feel that 2500-2700 is about right. I will most likely up the calories as training becomes more and more taxing.

Macros per day:

190-200g fat
160-200g protein
0-10g carbs (reasonable amounts of fiber)

I try to keep protein up to deter my body from losing muscle, but studies have shown high fat, moderate protein, and low carb works the best for endurance. I eat a lot of bacon, beef, salmon, mayonnaise, butter, flax, etc. I try to stay as paleo as possible so everything is natural/organic. I try to keep butter intake small seeing as I am mildly lactose intolerant, and dairy isn't paleo. I add in small amounts of spinach and other low carb, high fiber/protein leafy vegetables.

I felt absolutely terrible the first week, but I feel VERY energetic now. I have also not carb loaded in the past 4 weeks, and I see no decrease in endurance. My muscles were very flat as my glycogen was depleted and water was lost, but I now look more lean/muscular than ever. I am doing this more for the performance benefit, but I wont complain about the cosmetic changes !

I will begin to incorporate some sweet potatoes the day before long runs if I start to bonk. Hopefully I can avoid that when my body has fully adapted to burning fat instead of glycogen.

Just listen to your body, and you'll be golden. Remember the first week or two will not feel good. If you want to know anything else, just ask.

 

[kwal]

I also drink an unsweetened coconut almond milk that has zero net carbs per cup. Remember to supplement with a good daily multivitamin to make up for all the fruits and vegetables you aren't eating. I would also recommend magnesium to help with constipation and endurance training. It is essential for MANY body processes. Cheers!

 

[stacked1]

Good stuff there Kwal, what is your height/weight?

 

[kwal]

Good stuff there Kwal, what is your height/weight?

I am 6ft and 173-175lbs. Before the Keto diet change, I was around 180lbs, but I have leaned out quite a bit. I can't say what my body fat is accurately, but one of my training buddies who is a recreational bodybuilder and healthcare professional says I'm probably 7-8%. That leaves me with over 30,000 calories worth of fat stores which I think is a key advantage over glycogen burning athletes. We will see if my body taps into it a couple months down the road...

I lift a lot more than a traditional endurance athlete as well as do crossfit 5 days a week. Because of that, I have quite a bit more weight on me than a lot of my triathlon buddies who are around 150lbs at my height.

 

[ClaytonBigsby]

thanks for the reply man...very interesting for sure.

 

[ClaytonBigsby]

also, whats your blood work look like? A lot of the guys at my MMA gym do paleo but nobody ever has blood work done really.

Been thinking about going no carbs for a couple weeks now. Going to go ahead and start tomorrow.

 

[kwal]

also, whats your blood work look like? A lot of the guys at my MMA gym do paleo but nobody ever has blood work done really.

Been thinking about going no carbs for a couple weeks now. Going to go ahead and start tomorrow.

What type of things are you looking for? Vitamin deficiencies, CBC, test levels, etc.? I am very lucky to have access to blood testing anytime I need it. One of the few perks of my day job.

 

[ClaytonBigsby]

just always wondered what effect on the body consuming a Paleo Diet with a lot of meat would have if any. Any of your numbers ever out of normal range on any of the test youve had done?

 

[Simpllyhuge]

Good thread.

 

[kwal]

I haven't noticed any negative effects that would show up on blood tests. I can definitely get everything tested and report back. I have my values before starting a ketogenic diet, but I was paleo at that time. I can't imagine there will be drastic changes besides blood glucose and ketone body counts. As I said, I supplement with high amounts of vitamins and keep minerals/metals high but well below toxic levels.

In a couple weeks, I will be at two months in ketosis so that would probably be a good time to get preliminary blood tests. I can then do it again at four months, six months, etc.

Cheers!

 

[Pharm_Fed]

There will be a book coming out later this year by Mark Sisson called Primal Endurance discussing this very thing.

This book may also be worth a read.

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[triathloncoach]

He's not talking about the "event", he asked about training. Most athletes try to train beyond competition levels. In a true endurance event he will become glucose depleted so why not train for that condition?

This diet makes no sense. Could you use it? Sure, but it can't be optimal, or wise.

And to Fudd, respectfully, that's not true. Long Endurance events (or even training sessions) are referred too in some corners as "Eating Contests". The successful endurance athletes study and practice, practice, practice taking in a lot of calories during their events. You carb deplete in a few hours at most, even if you carb load leading up to the event - so you drink a gatorade/endurox type or drink, you eat energy bars, gels, bananas or other easily digested food (while running and biking) - that you practice eating in training to make sure it agrees with you.

And Ironman event takes someone in very good shape 12 hours to complete, the pros do it in about 8 1/2. Try to do this without taking in carbs and you will suffer (more) and probably not even finish. A chicken breast or a steak is a poor choice of readily available calories when you are 75 miles into your bike ride after a 2 plus mile swim, with 40 more miles to bike and then a 26 mile run. I can't believe Special Forces Guys on the move don't carry a lot of carbs around with them.

These guys/girls aren't worried about having nice looking muscles, tho some do, they need functional muscles.

I learned years ago - do you want to do really well in your races, or do you want to look good?

I have photos of me wrestling 190 in college, trainibg for the NYC Marathon, Running in a triathlon and now that I'm on gear.

I look like completely different people. But I'm always a beautiful man.

 

[triathloncoach]

Thanks for all the replies and input. I have read so much conflicting information from scientific articles and other forums so it seems that I will just have to experiment and see what works for me.

I have been eating virtually 0 carbs for about a week now though I do use flax and some spinach to keep fiber up. I felt terrible at day 3, but I began to feel much better around day 7 with less brain fog. I confirmed ketone levels by using a urine testing stick which gave me reading a bit above trace amounts. I am not currently having any issues during training, but I am also not running more than 35 miles/week. Once the weather starts to warm up, I will begin experimenting with long runs (18 miles+) with and without carb loads.

The only real problems to report is some mild constipation, but I'm adjusting my fiber, magnesium, and salt intake to fix that.

OK, say you are training for a 1/2 IM. You are on a Saturday Long Brick (Sunday is fine too ). You go for a 3 hour bike ride, hop off and go for a 90 minute run. Are you taking in any calories? Particularly on the bike? What are you eating? I have a difficult time believing your body is going to fuel itself efficiently (effectively and/or optimally) from your fat stores. But I am OFTEN wrong.

Are you taking Dec and/or EQ to elevate your RBC/Crit/Hemog? Are you playing Russian Roulette with EPO? Are you worried about stroking out? Do you get your blood tested to make certain it's not syrupy?

Before gear I did about 50 Triathlons at about 5'11" - 185lbs. Big for a triathlete, light for my usual. I was mediocre. Now I'm about 215, do an occasional Sprint and struggle to go at my old 1/2 IM pace for a Sprint. :banghead: Tough to do both eh? BTW I'm gonna be 50 soon.

 

[kwal]

This diet makes no sense. Could you use it? Sure, but it can't be optimal, or wise.

And to Fudd, respectfully, that's not true. Long Endurance events (or even training sessions) are referred too in some corners as "Eating Contests". The successful endurance athletes study and practice, practice, practice taking in a lot of calories during their events. You carb deplete in a few hours at most, even if you carb load leading up to the event - so you drink a gatorade/endurox type or drink, you eat energy bars, gels, bananas or other easily digested food (while running and biking) - that you practice eating in training to make sure it agrees with you.

And Ironman event takes someone in very good shape 12 hours to complete, the pros do it in about 8 1/2. Try to do this without taking in carbs and you will suffer (more) and probably not even finish. A chicken breast or a steak is a poor choice of readily available calories when you are 75 miles into your bike ride after a 2 plus mile swim, with 40 more miles to bike and then a 26 mile run. I can't believe Special Forces Guys on the move don't carry a lot of carbs around with them.

These guys/girls aren't worried about having nice looking muscles, tho some do, they need functional muscles.

I learned years ago - do you want to do really well in your races, or do you want to look good?

I have photos of me wrestling 190 in college, trainibg for the NYC Marathon, Running in a triathlon and now that I'm on gear.

I look like completely different people. But I'm always a beautiful man.

I completely agree with you. I am doing this more for my own personal research into ketosis and its effect on endurance. I have read many scientific articles on athletic performance and a metabolism adapted to ketones that show there may be a benefit. Other research shows the opposite so I decided to try it myself.

I'm not looking for a cosmetic benefit nor am I on gear.

I have done many long races, including Ironman events, and always carb loaded before and used carb drinks during the race. Its always been a given that to do well, you must eat a lot of carbs. I'd like to see what happens if I do a race after training six months in ketosis. Will I race without any carbs? No way. I will incorporate complex and maybe some simple carbs. It will be nothing like what I have done in the past where I was taking in hundreds of grams before and during the race. It may go horribly wrong, or I might find that this diet really works for me. Either way, the result will be interesting and worthwhile for my own research and will help others.

Cheers!

 

[kwal]

There will be a book coming out later this year by Mark Sisson called Primal Endurance discussing this very thing.

This book may also be worth a read.

Amazon.com: The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance (9780983490715): Jeff S. Volek, Stephen D. Phinney: Books

I actually just started the Art and Science of Low Carb Performance. It is very interesting and will definitely help me make diet decisions for races. I'll have to pick up the other book when it is released.