Ketotefin doses?

[UMD73]

I just got in some ketotefin finally, wondering what the dosage is that is required to keep clen effective?

 

[xcelbeyond]

Clenbuterol Article
by hooker - mod at bodybuilding4life

Let me just start by saying that this is the single most misunderstood compound in use for athletics and bodybuilding today. Most of the information out there is ½ truths and conjecture. Ok…having said that, I’m going to make an effort to dispel some myths and give everyone a better understanding of Clen.

First, lets plow quickly through some of the basics:

Clenbuterol (Clen) is a beta-2 agonist/antagonist bronchodialator. What this means, is that it stimulates your beta-2 receptors. And this in turn stimulates you (clen has stimulant effects which will make you feel….well…stimulated). All of this serves to increase your body temperature a bit, increase your basal metabolic rate, and decrease your appetite (Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1994 Jun;18(6):429-33.). Clen also can decrease insulin sensitivity (Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2002 Jul;283(1):E146-53.).

Clen is a very effective repartitioning agent, and this is what it’s most often used for. What this means is that it will increase your ratio of Fat Free Mass (FFM) to Fat Mass, by decreasing your Fat and possibly increasing your FFM (J Appl Physiol. 2001 Nov;91(5):2064-70). Want me to quantify that a bit? In one study, horses given a reasonable dose of clen (slightly over 1mcg/lb) and excercised for 20mins, 3x a week ( I suppose they were Mentzer disciples) had significant decreases in %fat (-17.6%) and fat mass (-19.5%) at week 2, which was similar to Clen given to horses who didn’t excretes; however, the exercised group had a different FFM response, which significantly increased (+4.4%) at week 6. Week 6! Clen and clen + exercise produce roughly the same results for the first 2 weeks! Remember the old 2 weeks-on/2weeks-off schedule? It’s officially dead and buried. If you want the quasi-anabolic effect from the clen, it’ll take more than 2weeks on (6 weeks apparently). And in fact, since clen alone is similar to clen + exercise for those first 2 weeks...why would you ever use a 2on/2off protocol? Keep in mind that animal responses to beta-agonist/antagonists differ a bit from ours…but you get the picture. 2on/2off? Ha ha...

Clen has a biphastic elimination, which means that it is technically reduced in your body in 2 different stages. This isn’t particularly important, as a recent study has shown that for most intents and purposes, clen concentrations in the body decline with a ½ life (approximately) equivalent to 7-9.2hours and again up to as much as 35 hours later(J Anal Toxicol. 2001 May-Jun;25(4):280-7. and J Vet Pharmacol Ther. 2004 Apr;27(2):71-7. and J Pharmacobiodyn. 1985 May;8(5):385-91. ). If you’re really interested, though, clen technically declines biphastically at 10 and then 36 hours. But really, in our little world, where we use ½ life to tell us when to take our next dose, who the hell is going to take clen, then a dose 10 hours later, then a dose 36 hours later. We’ll stick with the earlier 7-9 hour ½ life for dosing purposes, and take our clen every 3.5-4.5 hours that we’re awake, stopping early enough to still be able to get to bed. Clen can, in some people, cause insomnia (and as with all stimulants, can cause anxiety in some).

Clenbuterol can also cause a down-regulation in testicular androgen receptors and in pulmonary, cardiac and central nervous system beta-adrenergic receptors(J Anim Physiol Anim Nutr (Berl). 2004 Apr;88(3-4):94-100.)…possibly making steroids less effective while you are on clen, but definitely making clen less effective as time goes on and you keep taking it. To counteract this, you can take some ketotifen or periactim every 3rd or 4th week that you remain on clen. Both of these are prescription anti-histimines, so they’ll make you drowsy (take before bedtime). Basically, the way both of these work is to reduce beta-2 receptor activity.

A lot of people claim that clen is quite anti-catabolic and/or anabolic. This hasn’t been confirmed in human studies (Ann Pharmacother. 1995 Jan;29(1):75-7.). And the doses given to the animals in these studies where clen is shown to be very anti catabolic or highly anabolic are so absurdly high that no human could ever take them (1mg/kg of bodyweight and higher). The best you can hope for is the very mild anabolic effects I cited earlier.

Oh yeah…I guess I should get around to the proper dosing of clen. My recommendations are the same for both men and women. You’ll need to take 20mcgs upon rising, and then repeat that same dose again later in the day, and then once again in that day (if you find you can tolerate the effects). So you’ll start with 20mcgs, and then repeat that dose 2 more times that same day if you can tolerate it (side effects will determine this…hand shaking, sweating, etc…classic stimulant sides). Then you can start increasing the dose gradually. Personally, I wouldn’t work my way up to more than 200mcg/day. 60-120mcg/day is an average dose.

Also, bear in mind that clen isn’t great for your heart, and can cause some issues there (enlargement of ventricles, etc…) but most studies showing clen to cause heart problems are with animals, and even though the dosing is similar to what humans take (in some studies) it’s important to remember that animals have more beta-2 receptors and they cause certain event chains that humans’ beta-2 receptors may not. Clen causes cardiac hypertrophy to some degree, in some cases. Again though, many studies showing more significant heart problems are with mg dosing. We humans take clen in mcg doses.

If we want to duplicate the “therapeutic” levels of clen in the more conservative studies, we’d be taking just over 1mcg/lb of bodyweight. I’d suggest a bit less, though.

Performance issues with clen also vary. Some studies show reduced exercise (cardiovascular) performance with clen (Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002 Dec;34(12):1976-85.), while some show that clen can alleviate exercise induced asthma (Respiration. 1987;51(3):205-13.)! Sometimes you feel like a nut…sometimes you don’t, I guess. What this means, to me, is that you’ll need to figure out how clen affects your performance individually.

Which brings me to the issue of cramps while on clen. I don’t get them. My friends don’t get them. Most of us are athletes who use clen during the season as well as the off season, and one of my friends even claims that it gives him more “wind” (cardiovascular stamina). Take on enough water every day and you should be fine. If you’re really concerned, you can take some extra minerals and taurine, since clen depletes taurine (Adv Exp Med Biol. 1996;403:233-45) as do most if not all beta-agonists. I don’t take anything more than my usual vitamins and minerals.

Well…there it is…pretty much all I know about clen. I hope this answers some questions and clears up some misconceptions.

Hooker also states if you want to just stay on Clenbuterol, you can take 50mgs of Benadryl every night for a week (say...1 week per month), and you'll keep your beta-2 receptors fresh. Instead of coming off the clen, that is.

 

[xcelbeyond]

ketotifen dosage

Gor the life of me, I can't remember how much IP put in his "old" SuperClen. Seems like it was 1mg. But consider that I (and many others) NEVER used a full tab in a day - 1/4 to 1/2 tab.

 

[Pittbull™]

Not sure where I got this from but I hope it helps.

Ketotifen - the must drug with clenbuterol

What Is It?
Ketotifen is very safe antihistamine used extensively in Europe to treat bronchial asthma and allergies. It is also being studied as a treatment for colitis. When used for asthma, weight gain and an increase in appetite are among the most frequent side effects. Ketotifen also protects the cells in the stomach, small intestine and perhaps the rest of the gut from a number of toxins. A number of case studies suggest that it may be helpful treating skin problems such as acne. Ketotifen also reduces edema (swelling and puffiness caused by water retention) around sores.

Ketotifen Studies
German researchers have published data showing that ketotifen lowers tnf-alpha in the test tube. One study used ketotifen in combination with oxymethadone, a steroid like Megace that helps people gain weight, so it is hard to gauge what effect ketotifen had (the study notes a 14% reduction in TNF-alpha levels and weight gains of 11-12 pounds in less than four weeks). A larger placebo controlled study of this combination is underway. The other study used ketotifen by itself in eight patients with elevated TNF-alpha, (but no wasting). Taking ketotifen for 12 weeks, these patients gained an average of six pounds, had increases in their body cell mass and reductions in their TNF-alpha levels.

Side Effects and Toxicity
Ketotifen is virtually non-toxic (although it is not advised for patients with epilepsy). People who took twenty times the recommended dose (in suicide attempts) suffered no serious consequences (other than embarrassment). Its primary side effects seem to be temporary drowsiness, dry mouth,(and other mucous membranes) appetite stimulation and weight gain.

Dosing and Side Effects
No studies have been done to find the most effective dose but the German researchers used 4 mg ED. Dan Duchaine (who discovered ketos use for BB) suggested 10mg ED but in my experience this much is not needed and makes u far too sleepy - knock you right out probably. I find that 2-3mg ED seems ideal and is about as much as I can stand. However, much higher doses have been shown to be quite safe with no adverse affects other than increased drowsiness and appetite? It will make u hungry for solid foods. You can take it divided in the day or all at once.

Ketotifen and Clenbuterol
Clenbuterol is a beta 2 agonist which has a limited anabolic effect during its first few days of use and afterward is normally used to fight fat. At higher doses, however, it can be catabolic to muscle and it must be cycled on a 2 week on, 2 week of basis or the beta 2 receptors that clen binds to become saturated and down regulate.

Ketotifens magic is that it up regulates the beta-receptors including the beta 2s that clen uses. As long as you are taking ketotifen, it will continue to clean these receptors, never allowing them to down regulate. Even while on a heavy clen cycle. That means you can continue to take clen indefinitely without having to cycle off to regenerate the receptors. 2-3mg ED can up regulate even severely shut down receptors within a week.

It also means that you don’t need as much clen to get the same benefits. It seems u can take about 30-40% less clen and it be equally effective. FONZ posted that it also increases the number of receptor sites on the surface of the cell, allowing more clen to attach and perhaps this is the reason for the increased efficacy. Ketotifen also seems to lessen the sides of clen including the jitters.

Ketotifen and ECA
Perhaps an even better use for ketotifen is taking it with the ECA stack. While the thermogenic effect of ephedrine is not as potent as clen because it doesn't have a high receptor affinity, and it is not limited to beta-2 receptors. In fact it seems to have a good effect on beta 3 receptors as well, which act as a type of thermogenic messenger and over half of ephedrine effect is from beta-3 stimulation. Clen has almost no effect on beta 3 however. So by keeping the beta 2 receptors up, ketotifen can allow the benefits of continuous beta 2 and beta 3 stimulation from ephedrine.
"Ephedrine is believed to have some direct effect on both alpha adrenoceptors and beta adrenoceptors, but AT THERAPEUTIC DOSES, ephedrine exerts its thermogenic effect almost entirely via stimulating noradrenaline release from the sympathetic nerve terminals [endings] . . . at least 40% of the [thermogenic] response is mediated by an atypical receptor, which is presumed to be the beta 3-adrenoceptor."

 

[Skip]

I skipped the posted info because I have a solid opinion on it based on alot of use with myself and my clients. Time and time again, ketotifen has shown ME that it is useless in keeping clen active.

Comparing using clen all the time with ketotifen and clen 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off, the latter is far superior.

This is just my opinion based on my experience with my clients. My clients will tell you the same thing.

Skip

 

[Armageddon]

Fuck that shit! I used to eat one of ip's superclen and be a raving loonatic for an hour or more then sleep like I had been up for 3 days. Fuck that, I really didn't notice much difference. Although it was fun to try and go shopping with others that had taken it and where falling in the isles at the grocery store and knocking over displays and shit. But other than that, NO

 

[UMD73]

how does the 2 wk on 2 off stack up for the anti catabolic effects? I am taking this as part of a post cycle regime therefore I want to continue these effects as long as possible to maximize kept gains. Hence why I have been looking to ketotifen rather than cycling it like normal