Kris Dim Androgen Recptors Shuting Down

[aHarness]

He is not the first MD that never looked into FGFs.

Who are you referring to here? Scott or Kurt?

 

[aHarness]

I’m saying that I won’t argue whether receptors “shut down” or not. I honestly don’t know for sure that is the case or not.

I’m just saying that after being on cycle for long periods of time (I’m talking up to a year or longer), there becomes this “tired” look to the physique.

Do you see a large change in the clients labs during this time? (Besides the obvious, of course)

 

[Elvia1023]

There are plenty of guys running high doses for years that look like freaks but obviously over time due to various factors they may start to look "tired". Their muscles lose that pop and they simply don't look fresh. This won't have much to do with androgen receptors more just general abuse and it doesn't have to be anything crazy. Androgen receptors up regulate but there is a limit to anything. There are far too many variables involved case by case to give a definite answer. Some guys take high doses for long periods and many different areas are negatively effected. All it takes is one organ to start being overwhelmed and the whole system will follow.

I have known guys to take orals through the year and they transform and they get bigger and better but eventually a lot of them start having digestive issues. That could be AAS induced or it could be a combination of diet and drugs. Someone's digestion is controlled by 1001 different things and many things could ruin it and that's just 1 system. Eating 400g protein from animal protein per day could go great for you but 18 months in the body might start having issues digesting that amount of animal protein. Just the same as you might start having issues with the 10iu HGH you have been injecting daily for 18 months because your fasted blood glucose and blood pressure are at an all time high and your CRP has multiplied over the last year and your liver has enlarged slightly.

There is only so much abuse the body can take and sometimes it needs a break. Drugs don't just stop working though. If they did TRT wouldn't continue to work. A natural has a limit and when you get close to it things will stall. X bodybuilder on 2 grams of test will have a much higher limit but the same thing will happen when he gets to it. Guys mistake your drugs not working anymore because you don't progress but it's because everyone adapts and there is a limit to everything. Stop all the drugs and see what happens because they were definitely doing something. Although sometimes you need to take 1 step backwards to move another 2 steps forwards. When progress stalls most usually try and change something and that could be more training, more drugs or both. Doing that could have the opposite effect and start overwhelming the system and your body starts looking "tired".

Many are often looking for some complicated scientific explanation but there is usually a simple reason. A bodybuilder losing some condition or getting softer without changing their diet could be a byproduct of so many things. Even just a struggling liver could do that. Reduced insulin sensitivity from taking high dosed HGH could do that. Taking loads of toxic drugs that effect your liver, kidneys and heart could do that. Most things in bodybuilding when they are overdone (too high or too long) need a break from and that includes nutrition, drugs and training. It usually happens in the extremes meaning something starts struggling. I have known guys to maintain their look on say 400mg test for many years. It's when you start pushing things the body usually starts fighting back.

 

[Biggerp73]

Yes. That was my concluding comments.

 

[Stewie]

View attachment 216362

It's all good

Good thinking tho!

 

[emeric delczeg]

Who are you referring to here? Scott or Kurt?

Not Scott and not Kurt, I would like to share my thoughts with Scott and Kurt also, I don`t have direct contact information to ether on.

 

[fredmac82]

Found this today..

Downregulation of Androgen Receptors upon Anabolic-Androgenic Steroids: A Cause or a Flawed Hypothesis of the Muscle-Building Plateau?

Researchers and health practitioners seek to understand the upper limit of muscle hypertrophy under different conditions. Although there are models to estimate the muscle-building threshold in drug-free resistance training practitioners, little is known about the population using...

www.mdpi.com

This was a great read. More studies that show the prolong use of AAS upregulate AR and do not downregulate them.

 

[aHarness]

Not Scott and not Kurt, I would like to share my thoughts with Scott and Kurt also, I don`t have direct contact information to ether on.

Not sure about Scott, but if you dm Kurt on Instagram he will respond.

 

[specter]

Not sure about Scott, but if you dm Kurt on Instagram he will respond.

Yeah Kurt is easy to talk to.

 

[Stewie]

I contacted the clinic, Scott is no longer at the clinic, I emailed information the other MD regarding FGFs and my theory on partial agonist activity of exogeneous testosterone use. He is not the first MD that never looked into FGFs.

Which clinic did you try to contact Scott Howell at? Tier 1 in Chattanooga? I don't believe he's with, Dr. Keith Nichols anymore. Could be mistaken?

I believe Scott's now at Optimiz U.

Our Practitioners - Optimize U Centers

OUR PRACTITIONERS We’re not a traditional hormone clinic Meet our dedicated team of clinicians and doctors committed to helping you to feel your best. Meet The Team Founders Founding Medical Directors Medical Directors Practitioners Education & Research

optimizeucenters.com

 

[emeric delczeg]

Which clinic did you try to contact Scott Howell at? Tier 1 in Chattanooga? I don't believe he's with, Dr. Keith Nichols anymore. Could be mistaken?

I believe Scott's now at Optimiz U.

Our Practitioners - Optimize U Centers

OUR PRACTITIONERS We’re not a traditional hormone clinic Meet our dedicated team of clinicians and doctors committed to helping you to feel your best. Meet The Team Founders Founding Medical Directors Medical Directors Practitioners Education & Research

optimizeucenters.com

Correct his not with Nichols.
.

 

[Skip]

Do you see a large change in the clients labs during this time? (Besides the obvious, of course)

HUGE.

Skip

 

[aHarness]

HUGE.

Skip

Appreciate the response skip.

I’m thinking a lot of the benefit of “coming off” many see is the benefit of just pulling back for a period and allowing for the body to recover, lose inflammation etc. not to mention potentially regain the “drive” to push hard again.

We see many great athletes, even here like @bbxtreme or @TeaMan that never actually come off, but they also both have great coaches like AJ and @luki7788. Even while on they are properly managing fatigue, keeping their health markers in check as best as possible, and staying on dosages their body can handle and tolerate without causing too much stress.

 

[aHarness]

Found this today..

Downregulation of Androgen Receptors upon Anabolic-Androgenic Steroids: A Cause or a Flawed Hypothesis of the Muscle-Building Plateau?

Researchers and health practitioners seek to understand the upper limit of muscle hypertrophy under different conditions. Although there are models to estimate the muscle-building threshold in drug-free resistance training practitioners, little is known about the population using...

www.mdpi.com

Here’s a thought after reading that.

It makes me wonder as you hear many large bodybuilders saying that they used to take more and now find it necessary.

The idea that those larger cycles to potentially upregulate AR receptors or increase the amount could have actually been necessary for them to get away with doses they do now is definitely an interesting idea.

 

[specter]

Here’s a thought after reading that.

It makes me wonder as you hear many large bodybuilders saying that they used to take more and now find it necessary.

The idea that those larger cycles to potentially upregulate AR receptors or increase the amount could have actually been necessary for them to get away with doses they do now is definitely an interesting idea.

There is several things going on here imo, myostatin also upregulates as far as i remember during the cycle and only way to lower levels dramasticly is to lower total androgen load, we also have things like aromataze, 5ar reductase etc coming into play. I know the reason people need more rec drugs to get an effect isnt as much because the body gets use to it as it is the body getting more effective at removing the drug from the body.

 

[metabz]

There are lots of complicated issues with trying to measure true receptor regulation and almost none of this stuff is done in vivo. Even if you measured an increase in AR density, you might not get a correlated increase in RNA polymerase II or some other post-receptor mediator of protein synthesis - or you might see some compensatory increase in myostatin. And we have almost no research on healthy humans trying to maximize hypertrophy through high dosages of androgens.

What we do have is a shit ton of empirical data showing strength and athletic adaptations are maximized through cyclical training with deliberate detraining/deloading phases rather than continuous progressive overload training. It is likely the case that drugs don't fundamentally change this equation. The net effect of downtime from both heavy training and higher doses likely means you are healthier (both joints/connective tissue and organs) and can attain peak conditioning more times in your life with little to no impact on maximum attainable size.

 

[aHarness]

There is several things going on here imo, myostatin also upregulates as far as i remember during the cycle and only way to lower levels dramasticly is to lower total androgen load, we also have things like aromataze, 5ar reductase etc coming into play.

That doesn’t counter the point I’m trying to make though, which is that they are still benefitting from those higher cycles they once did.

I know the reason people need more rec drugs to get an effect isnt as much because the body gets use to it as it is the body getting more effective at removing the drug from the body.

Are you sure it’s not just them getting used to that level of “high” and chasing an “even bigger high”? The reality is every drug, for the most part, just works so differently it’s hard to compare. No one sees better BP control from stopping then starting telmisartan for example.

 

[specter]

That doesn’t counter the point I’m trying to make though, which is that they are still benefitting from those higher cycles they once did.


Are you sure it’s not just them getting used to that level of “high” and chasing an “even bigger high”? The reality is every drug, for the most part, just works so differently it’s hard to compare. No one sees better BP control from stopping then starting telmisartan for example.

This was verified to me by my countries nr.1 expert and go to guy by state, media etc during a 1 on 1 talk. He has written several papers and books on rec drugs and is very well known in the world for his knowledge on the topic.

 

[nothuman]

Can ya’ll go easy on Kris Dim? He survived an aortic dissection, returned to bodybuilding, then had shit luck and became paralyzed. He’s been through more serious shit than people saying bad things about him on the internet just because he made an incorrect statement about androgen receptors.

 

[aHarness]

This was verified to me by my countries nr.1 expert and go to guy by state, media etc during a 1 on 1 talk. He has written several papers and books on rec drugs and is very well known in the world for his knowledge on the topic.

Got it. I don’t do rec drugs so I don’t really know anything regarding them so I’ll trust you.

Either way, not the point I’m here to discuss however really.