Kurt havens: expert educator or expert bullshitter

[tenny]

Yes lol. Its almost like some guys worship their coach like a god. I think part of it is they view the coach as their mentor or friend, when in reality the "coach" or trainer just views them as income.

99% of them dont need a "coach"....

what they are looking for is a cheerleader.

 

[FrenchBench22]

99% of them dont need a "coach"....

what they are looking for is a cheerleader.

I'm not looking to make this a sociopolitical divergence, but I have found that a large portion of people that approach me for guidance are not looking for a coach for nutrition/training/chemistry - they're looking for a support person. It starts with advice regarding training/nutrition, then evolves to something else. Someone to listen to them, someone to share their lives with, someone to give them guidance [with life], someone to model themselves after.

I don't know if this is just a thing with men in the United States, a lack of male role model and basically paying someone (the coach) to fill that role, but I have not noticed this as much with European and South American men. In other lands, it is more of a purely transactional business cooperation - in my experience.

Hany Rambod and Kyle Wilkes had a discussion where this exact topic came up, men looking for a father figure and not a coach, and how it can make a coaching/client relationship unsustainable.

 

[qbkilla]

I'm not looking to make this a sociopolitical divergence, but I have found that a large portion of people that approach me for guidance are not looking for a coach for nutrition/training/chemistry - they're looking for a support person. It starts with advice regarding training/nutrition, then evolves to something else. Someone to listen to them, someone to share their lives with, someone to give them guidance [with life], someone to model themselves after.

I don't know if this is just a thing with men in the United States, a lack of male role model and basically paying someone (the coach) to fill that role, but I have not noticed this as much with European and South American men. In other lands, it is more of a purely transactional business cooperation - in my experience.

Hany Rambod and Kyle Wilkes had a discussion where this exact topic came up, men looking for a father figure and not a coach, and how it can make a coaching/client relationship unsustainable.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Years ago I used alex a. But I didn't call him coach, he was my online personal trainer. I paid him and he looked at my pictures and adjusted my diet and occasionally training, I was happy with the results. I did not consider him a friend but simply used the good service he provided. It seems like now days these coach client relationships are much more social in many aspects, a great way for the coaches to keep clients coming back even if results are subpar.

 

[BigJP23]

no.....we want to hear.

This was the dm I sent to td:

Prior offseasons when I tried 10+ iu I would get unbearable, burning carpal tunnel that would only go away if I completely discontinued gh.
This time I tried 20iu daily for about 5 weeks thinking I could mitigate it with a combination of BP meds and diuretics and it became unexplainably painful and persistent. I went weeks without being able to lay down or fall asleep, only getting an hour or two of sleep at a time sitting upright in a chair.
I went two months without gh and the fingers of my left hand remained completely numb. I went to a specialist, had xray, mri, and EMG nerve tests done and both hands have severe carpal tunnel, the right side also has the guyon’s canal totally compressed. The specialist told me it was one of the most severe cases he’s seen and only surgery would help.
I think it’s a combination of me being prone to those side effects and the enormous dose. I hear other guys running 30-70iu per day with zero sides. Lucky them

 

[Josefein421]

Not to mention how weird it is all these people literally make who their coach is their identity. They’ve got their coach in their bio, they wear clothing from their coaches “team” 24/7, and have to tag their coach in a million ig posts a day. It’s just so bizarre to me

Dude this!!! I have always wondered wtf is up w that! It is like a cult! Which lends me to my street gang theory. Hear me out...

People in modern society are so desperate to belong to a movement/group to share or represent their belonging on social media it is the same as gangs that prey on young kids in the hood. Those kids have shit and just want to belong to something and feel they have a chance and get a leg up. Same thing phenomenon. People just want to belong to something. What is weird is kids recruited by gangs are loyal because they have nothing and are thrown enough scraps to keep them coming. But what do these "athletes" get or what motivates them to pimp a random coach like some mystical leader... I just dont get.

 

[Josefein421]

Agree. The whole "coach" phenomenon in itself is cringe, and this extends beyond bodybuilding..."life coach" "behavior coach" "instructional coach" lol.

I guess its easier to say "im a coach" then say "im a dude that tells other dudes what I think they should eat, how they should train, and how many drugs they should take."

I prefer the old school term personal trainer. I don't recall Alex azarian (rip) ever calling himself coach he was an online trainer.

People literally spending $ on a "coach" yet sleeping 5 hours per night and "having a cheat meal or two with the family " 3x a week and not taking their sets to failure

I know girls locally who had Eddie Moyzan a big up and comer from the early 2000's as their "leg coach". Diet coach, coach for training... leg coach. Because legs are so important for wellness... duh! It isnt like they were paying each a couple hundred per month!

As for your other comment on coaches being support people. I agree with that and can use myself as an example. I always had a coarse relationship with coaches until Josh Bryant who I just clicked with. He is as close a mentor as I had in strength sports. But I admit we talked a lot about things outside the gym, mental health, tactics, etc. Which I dont think is normal and I will admit I do think I am "needy" in any relationship. Just how I am I guess. So I need a coach who clicks with that and types a few extra words so I dont ruminate on if hes irritated with me based on his 2 sentence response.

But you are 100% right with your last point about paying for a coach with all the other things out of whack. I have also thought of that... considered a coach at times and had to check myself and realize I have a lot of shit I can get in order better first. I think a lot of people dont care bout that though because of your first point.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

I'm not looking to make this a sociopolitical divergence, but I have found that a large portion of people that approach me for guidance are not looking for a coach for nutrition/training/chemistry - they're looking for a support person. It starts with advice regarding training/nutrition, then evolves to something else. Someone to listen to them, someone to share their lives with, someone to give them guidance [with life], someone to model themselves after.

I don't know if this is just a thing with men in the United States, a lack of male role model and basically paying someone (the coach) to fill that role, but I have not noticed this as much with European and South American men. In other lands, it is more of a purely transactional business cooperation - in my experience.

Hany Rambod and Kyle Wilkes had a discussion where this exact topic came up, men looking for a father figure and not a coach, and how it can make a coaching/client relationship unsustainable.

This is real, 100%.
I honestly wiiish I had more clients that just wanted info, to pick my brain, etc. instead the nutrition/training questions start to turn into me being a therapist. The problems in their life, girlfriend, work, family, etc. I get it. They want someone to confide in. But they end up just venting and its bad.

As much as i love coaching, its much more of a relationship building endeavor than it is knowing nutrition/training. And im faaar more interested in helping people with the nutrition/training part then being their psychiatrist.

 

[Onemind1body1]

Damn not gonna lie, this thread kinda went into a disgusting direction. Individuals looking to better themselves (in many ways/forms) via methods they've self-admitted to not doing as well as others or at the very least do better by seeking the help of others. Whether it be for education, accountability, or idea generation. Quite literally a similar dynamic to countless industries related to health, performance, and otherwise. Yet get's so much scrutiny. Kinda wild. Happy to see everyone thriving without the need for intervention from coach, doctor, friends, or family. Let's all do it alone, it means more that way!

 

[Jefe]

This is real, 100%.
I honestly wiiish I had more clients that just wanted info, to pick my brain, etc. instead the nutrition/training questions start to turn into me being a therapist. The problems in their life, girlfriend, work, family, etc. I get it. They want someone to confide in. But they end up just venting and its bad.

As much as i love coaching, its much more of a relationship building endeavor than it is knowing nutrition/training. And im faaar more interested in helping people with the nutrition/training part then being their psychiatrist.

Offer two packages:

1. Coaching $500

2. Coaching and therapy $1500


That has to be annoying. And if you try to keep it brief then they can go online and say you don’t care, etc

 

[Big Dave Smith]

I know girls locally who had Eddie Moyzan a big up and comer from the early 2000's as their "leg coach". Diet coach, coach for training... leg coach. Because legs are so important for wellness... duh! It isnt like they were paying each a couple hundred per month!

As for your other comment on coaches being support people. I agree with that and can use myself as an example. I always had a coarse relationship with coaches until Josh Bryant who I just clicked with. He is as close a mentor as I had in strength sports. But I admit we talked a lot about things outside the gym, mental health, tactics, etc. Which I dont think is normal and I will admit I do think I am "needy" in any relationship. Just how I am I guess. So I need a coach who clicks with that and types a few extra words so I dont ruminate on if hes irritated with me based on his 2 sentence response.

But you are 100% right with your last point about paying for a coach with all the other things out of whack. I have also thought of that... considered a coach at times and had to check myself and realize I have a lot of shit I can get in order better first. I think a lot of people dont care bout that though because of your first point.

You an Allentown guy?

 

[Big Dave Smith]

Dude this!!! I have always wondered wtf is up w that! It is like a cult! Which lends me to my street gang theory. Hear me out...

People in modern society are so desperate to belong to a movement/group to share or represent their belonging on social media it is the same as gangs that prey on young kids in the hood. Those kids have shit and just want to belong to something and feel they have a chance and get a leg up. Same thing phenomenon. People just want to belong to something. What is weird is kids recruited by gangs are loyal because they have nothing and are thrown enough scraps to keep them coming. But what do these "athletes" get or what motivates them to pimp a random coach like some mystical leader... I just dont get.

It’s cross cultural. I think part of the human brain, for many people, requires the need to follow something like a religion or tribe. Literal tribalism. They aren’t meant to be leaders, they’re sheep.

As religion has died down, people have replaced the void with sports fanaticism, extreme leftism, and many forms of worship/tribalism/purpose. For our industry, it’s the prep coach business.

My buddy owns Violate, the female clothing line. He went from living with his mom to making crazy money and having people flock to him. Most people around him are artificial/superficial friends because he provides them (mostly women) a platform to push their image on social media AND they get free clothes. He’s a professional photographer too. The holy trinity of what a fitness chick wants. In 12 years of him running the company, I’ve never been able to hang around him when his flock is around because of how they worship him. His real friends, who didn’t care if he sold life insurance or worked in a factory, seem to not associate as much with the artificial flock. It’s wild to see.

 

[Josefein421]

You an Allentown guy?

yes.

 

[dantes]

Agree. The whole "coach" phenomenon in itself is cringe, and this extends beyond bodybuilding..."life coach" "behavior coach" "instructional coach" lol.

I guess its easier to say "im a coach" then say "im a dude that tells other dudes what I think they should eat, how they should train, and how many drugs they should take."

I prefer the old school term personal trainer. I don't recall Alex azarian (rip) ever calling himself coach he was an online trainer.

People literally spending $ on a "coach" yet sleeping 5 hours per night and "having a cheat meal or two with the family " 3x a week and not taking their sets to failure

It really blows my mind how many people I meet at the gym who have coaches now. They are just regular guys not competitors and look totally average. Most of them I see also train with no real intensity or intention. I even ask them why they need a coach and they claim they wouldn’t know what to do without one. Is it really so hard to think for yourself?

 

[Big Dave Smith]

yes.

Very cool. Hopefully we cross paths some day. I’m up there a lot for work.

 

[Truckman]

Licensed Therapists would help more than a prep coach for most. The original life coach before social media.

 

[claymore]

For what it’s worth…there’s very few people out of all the names and faces I’ve seen on social media giving “PED” advice that I would take advice from. JMO

 

[qbkilla]

Licensed Therapists would help more than a prep coach for most. The original life coach before social media.

Yep. There is this one "coach' I see talking on ig about how he supports his clients, talks about how this is a lifestyle, behavior modification, "food noise ', etc

1. No shit. Everything is behavior. If someone is willing to spend $ on a coach they should already have the basics in place like be willing to go to the gym, put down the fork, not drink.

2. I doubt he has the qualifications to modify behavior..is he a therapist, certified bcba? No.

Maybe I'm old school but a true "coach" isn't a cheerleader, you can find those for free. A coaches focus should be on manipulating diet, training, drug use (maybe) to make progress on how the body looks.

Anyone can send you a motivational quote from Google and tell you to toss the box of twinkies in the trash and not scroll on your phone while laying in bed trying to sleep.

 

[Josefein421]

Yep. There is this one "coach' I see talking on ig about how he supports his clients, talks about how this is a lifestyle, behavior modification, "food noise ', etc

1. No shit. Everything is behavior. If someone is willing to spend $ on a coach they should already have the basics in place like be willing to go to the gym, put down the fork, not drink.

2. I doubt he has the qualifications to modify behavior..is he a therapist, certified bcba? No.

Maybe I'm old school but a true "coach" isn't a cheerleader, you can find those for free. A coaches focus should be on manipulating diet, training, drug use (maybe) to make progress on how the body looks.

Anyone can send you a motivational quote from Google and tell you to toss the box of twinkies in the trash and not scroll on your phone while laying in bed trying to sleep.

It isnt that easy for people or personal trainers in gyms across America wouldnt exist and neither would GLP's. Not everyone has the innate discipline or drive like the vast majority here. And even here look how many guys are benefiting from decreased "food noise" or champion Reta as a game changer.

Even at the highest levels I guys like Nick Walker seem much more needy than other guys. Doesn't make someone better or worse in my opinion just different needs.

There's a lid for every pot.