Kurt havens: This PED bodybuilding knowledge is wrong (video)

[traininsane11]

I know Kurt gets a very mixed review on here but I really rate Nyle’s interview style with actual interesting relevant questions so it could be a good watch (haven’t watched it yet myself)

Discussions below once watched

 

[traininsane11]

Watched 2 clips I found interesting

Kurt doesn’t recommend Reta for off-season guys

Interesting theory on how to determine if your volume is to high - put your first exercise at the end of the workout and if you aren’t hitting the same numbers it’s to much volume (I didn’t get to watch this clip fully so I maybe misquoting slightly here as it does sound illogical)

 

[Ha.Ki.Beom]

Watched 2 clips I found interesting

Kurt doesn’t recommend Reta for off-season guys

Interesting theory on how to determine if your volume is to high - put your first exercise at the end of the workout and if you aren’t hitting the same numbers it’s to much volume (I didn’t get to watch this clip fully so I maybe misquoting slightly here as it does sound illogical)

yeah you should watch the whole thing, you are quoting him wrong. He used this as an exemple of what Chris Beardsley says. A proxy to checking training volume, not a hard set rule as described by Chris. Also, not hitting the same numbers as your first exercise....and again, a proxy, a tool...

Kurt is by far one of the most knowledgeable person in the industry. I have the privilege to talk to him on a regular basis.

 

[traininsane11]

Before the pro/anti Kurt guys get their pretty posing biknis’s in a twist I will state I have absolutely NO dog in the pro/anti Kurt fight. I enjoy his content and he comes across knowledgable whether he actually is or not is seemingly a debatable subject for many

 

[Aikman56]

Watched 2 clips I found interesting

Kurt doesn’t recommend Reta for off-season guys

I actually listened to this this morning and his position on Reta seems just a bit self-contradictory.

First, he says he doesn’t recommend it in the off-season because it can slow digestion too much and hamper eating. Then, in the next breath, he says that food is not a driver for growth. Growth requires energy and food provides that, but people overestimate how much they should eat and how much the bigger Pros (citing Nick Walker, specifically) are eating.

So which is it?

Reta is bad or good? Does it slow the gastric emptying to the point where you can’t even eat the lower amount than you think you need”?

Beyond that, I enjoy the podcast. Just seemed silly that he keyed in on Reta as slow in gastric champing to the point that it seemed comparable to Sema, yet we don’t need to quite as much as we think we do because food is not a driver of growth.

Make up your mind, my brother in Christ!

 

[Aikman56]

Watched 2 clips I found interesting

Interesting theory on how to determine if your volume is to high - put your first exercise at the end of the workout and if you aren’t hitting the same numbers it’s to much volume (I didn’t get to watch this clip fully so I maybe misquoting slightly here as it does sound illogical)

Now this, I did find very intriguing… I’ve completely revamped what I’m doing in the coming year, increasing both food and training volume. I’ve spent the better part of two decades training Dorian-style… one set to failure with intensifiers. And the last decade has pretty much just felt like a holding pattern for me, competing at the same weight, but a little leaner each time. I would challenge anyone to train or eat or utilize supplementation more consistently than I do. I can say, without any ego, that I am doing all of the things. That should have resulted in some additional muscular growth at this point. Even with the worst genetics in the world, Training ones balls off, should not simply result in a continuation of the status quo. I think that I might be one of those people that would benefit from additional volume, so I’m going to use the reverse of this “diagnostic” to determine if I’m being too aggressive with my increasing volume.

Of course, I’ll be watching other data points, such as bodyweight, progression, overall strength, etc.… I just thought that this might be a nice little diagnostic tool to insert once in a while.

In fact, I think I’m gonna make a thread on this and get input from folks that might not check out this thread.

 

[traininsane11]

Now this, I did find very intriguing… I’ve completely revamped what I’m doing in the coming year, increasing both food and training volume. I’ve spent the better part of two decades training Dorian-style… one set to failure with intensifiers. And the last decade has pretty much just felt like a holding pattern for me, competing at the same weight, but a little leaner each time. I would challenge anyone to train or eat or utilize supplementation more consistently than I do. I can say, without any ego, that I am doing all of the things. That should have resulted in some additional muscular growth at this point. Even with the worst genetics in the world, Training ones balls off, should not simply result in a continuation of the status quo. I think that I might be one of those people that would benefit from additional volume, so I’m going to use the reverse of this “diagnostic” to determine if I’m being too aggressive with my increasing volume.

Of course, I’ll be watching other data points, such as bodyweight, progression, overall strength, etc.… I just thought that this might be a nice little diagnostic tool to insert once in a while.

In fact, I think I’m gonna make a thread on this and get input from folks that might not check out this thread.

Definitely going to follow your progress as I am doing something similar (switching from mid to low volume HIT type training to more higher volume)

I do believe it kiiiiinda all works but I do think some styles suit certain people better.

I recover well between sessions, am relatively strong, can train damn hard and have decent endurance but struggle to get in condition or get my food high in the offseason so I think using higher volume may be beneficial for me.

I’m also somewhat “big” but not overly bodybuilder big as in 3d if that makes sense and I also weigh way more than I look (in relation to the other thread on here)

 

[Ha.Ki.Beom]

I actually listened to this this morning and his position on Reta seems just a bit self-contradictory.

First, he says he doesn’t recommend it in the off-season because it can slow digestion too much and hamper eating. Then, in the next breath, he says that food is not a driver for growth. Growth requires energy and food provides that, but people overestimate how much they should eat and how much the bigger Pros (citing Nick Walker, specifically) are eating.

So which is it?

Reta is bad or good? Does it slow the gastric emptying to the point where you can’t even eat the lower amount than you think you need”?

Beyond that, I enjoy the podcast. Just seemed silly that he keyed in on Reta as slow in gastric champing to the point that it seemed comparable to Sema, yet we don’t need to quite as much as we think we do because food is not a driver of growth.

Make up your mind, my brother in Christ!

So reta can hamper digestion in a time in which you will be consuming the most amount of food. which is contradictory.....

What he means is food doesn't drive muscle growth. You can't eat yourself into new muscle....you will just get fat. You can't speed up the process of muscle acre by over consuming food. mTor from food is like a 'switch', it's not the driver of muscle growth. The driver is mechanical tension, IGF-1.... You only need a slight calarie surplus to allow that switch to be "on"

The mentality that you need to 'bulk' and all that extra food is gonna become muscle is a misconception.

Now, the more training, and the more training volume you do, the more your maintenance calories are...and the more that slight surplus will be. Alongside homeostasis mechanisms....that calories tend to increase over time. So now in my growing phase for example my maintenance is pretty much close to 5000 kcals and im consuming around 5200 kcals.....but im not consuming more than that I would just destroy my A1C and get fat....

MORE FOOD doesn't equal MORE MUSCLE.....keep the anabolism switch ON thats the role of food.

 

[Aikman56]

So reta can hamper digestion in a time in which you will be consuming the most amount of food. which is contradictory.....

What he means is food doesn't drive muscle growth. You can't eat yourself into new muscle....you will just get fat. You can't speed up the process of muscle acre by over consuming food. mTor from food is like a 'switch', it's not the driver of muscle growth. The driver is mechanical tension, IGF-1.... You only need a slight calarie surplus to allow that switch to be "on"

The mentality that you need to 'bulk' and all that extra food is gonna become muscle is a misconception.

Now, the more training, and the more training volume you do, the more your maintenance calories are...and the more that slight surplus will be. Alongside homeostasis mechanisms....that calories tend to increase over time. So now in my growing phase for example my maintenance is pretty much close to 5000 kcals and im consuming around 5200 kcals.....but im not consuming more than that I would just destroy my A1C and get fat....

MORE FOOD doesn't equal MORE MUSCLE.....keep the anabolism switch ON thats the role of food.

I’m not sure why you bothered typing all that. It only serves to prove my point. His statements are contradictory. Each of the statements, separate and by themselves, make perfect sense. But saying one, and then the other makes no sense. If he doesn’t think you need that much food, then he shouldn’t be worried about someone using Reta during the off-season.

 

[Duke309]

I know Kurt gets a very mixed review on here but I really rate Nyle’s interview style with actual interesting relevant questions so it could be a good watch (haven’t watched it yet myself)

Discussions below once watched

Haven't finished it yet, but how in the world does he have 200 clients and over 300 calls per month and still work on a PhD and whatever else he says he does

 

[luki7788]

Haven't finished it yet, but how in the world does he have 200 clients and over 300 calls per month and still work on a PhD and whatever else he says he does

I'll just say this from experience - if someone brags about how many clients they have and you see them constantly on YouTube, podcasts, and other social media, the reality is different than they want to portray...

I've never even approached a hundred clients at once, and I know how difficult it is to manage them all when the number grows to 70+... managing 200 clients is impossible unless you use chatGPT's automatic response system for work.

But what do I know - maybe I'm just incompetent, lol.

 

[Aikman56]

I'll just say this from experience - if someone brags about how many clients they have and you see them constantly on YouTube, podcasts, and other social media, the reality is different than they want to portray...

I've never even approached a hundred clients at once, and I know how difficult it is to manage them all when the number grows to 70+... managing 200 clients is impossible unless you use chatGPT's automatic response system for work.

But what do I know - maybe I'm just incompetent, lol.

Yeah, when I heard him say “200 clients“ my immediate thought was ChatGPT and cookie cutter routines. Now, he did mention phone consults in there, so who knows how many of those he’s doing, or how long those take? But still, I don’t think any human can handle that volume of work and give every inquiry/client a customized, personal response.

 

[Ha.Ki.Beom]

I’m not sure why you bothered typing all that. It only serves to prove my point. His statements are contradictory. Each of the statements, separate and by themselves, make perfect sense. But saying one, and then the other makes no sense. If he doesn’t think you need that much food, then he shouldn’t be worried about someone using Reta during the off-season.

Needing that much food vs a ton of food is not the same...

at 5200 I still feel super full everyday, if I were to use a drug to slow down my digestion and motility it would be a recipe for disaster..

but ok...my point was not argue with anyone. I did write all of that because to me it is very clear that it wasn't contradictory statements in my head I thought writting this could help clarify.

Either way. Peace.

 

[td]

I'll check it out because I like Nyle. I think he's fair, authentic, well-spoken. Hell of a physique too.

But Kurt previously has been a difficult listen. It's clear that he's intelligent. But there's frequently so little nuance. Everything is presented with the confidence of absolute authority. It's reminescent of Mentzer's tone.

 

[Reno911]

I am listening now. I would push back when he says food is not a driver for growth. For "me" personally my best gains and looks have been when food has been pushed. Gear and training can stay the same but for me the diet set up is what moves the needle.

Maybe he's referring to under 200lb guys but when guys are venturing north of 230 and up to 300 food will play a more important part than gear and training IMO.

 

[specter]

I am listening now. I would push back when he says food is not a driver for growth. For "me" personally my best gains and looks have been when food has been pushed. Gear and training can stay the same but for me the diet set up is what moves the needle.

Maybe he's referring to under 200lb guys but when guys are venturing north of 230 and up to 300 food will play a more important part than gear and training IMO.

Food is and was absolutely one of the biggest drivers of me pushing past 225lbs at 5,5" in decent shape, i had to push food hard.

 

[bjjgear]

I'll never listen to it to see what type of nuance is there in whatever claim it is, but try growing without steroids. It will work. Try growing without training. It will work. Now try growing without food.

 

[traininsane11]

I'll never listen to it to see what type of nuance is there in whatever claim it is, but try growing without steroids. It will work. Try growing without training. It will work. Now try growing without food.

Yet to listen but I imagine what he’s saying (he spoke about it on another podcast with vigorous Steve and John Jewett I think) is that the amount of calories above surplus to grow maximally can be a lot less than people may think and the latest studies indicate it’s possible to add muscle upto a 500 calorie deficit.

I believe Justin Harris has said similar in regards to protein consumption

 

[Truckman]

I have listened to every single podcast that Kurt, Paul, and their group have released, many of which multiple times.. I drive a lot with my business and work with headphones, majority of the time. That said.. their personalities, bodybuilding related beliefs, industry backgrounds, and other information often differs with previously released podcasts.. To be fair, sometimes for the better, through new information, and gained knowledge. Kurt is very educated on certain subjects, other areas he deflects quickly, insulin being the biggest one, which I find odd with his fascination, beliefs, and knowing of HGH. In 2025, we are all aware of the synergy between the two, which plays a major role in the muscle size of modern bodybuilding. Personality wise, my assumption is they changed somewhat with the success and to mimic Victor's personality as they leveled up. Overall, they are still some of the better knowledge base sources speaking publicly about gear online.

Pharma HGH vs Modern Generic's in 2025, is something I personally don't exactly see eye to eye with him on.

 

[OldManLogan]

I love Kurt and his stoic introverted delivery. Agree or disagree, I feel I learn something every time I listen to him.

I’m convinced the dude is super introverted and that demeanor can seem like he’s arrogant and aloof, but I have enough friends who are like that to understand. We can’t all be extroverts.