Leroy Colbert gives surprising BBing advice.

[Buildinthaskinnys]

If you are training a body part ED or EOD eventually you will have to deload.

 

[mule]

IMO..

If you can train a bodypart every day or EOD, THEN:

1. You aren't using enough weight AND/OR

2. You aren't progressing in strength AND/OR

3. Don't posses enough strength to do damage to muscle tissue (meaning you are new to the sport).

Increases in muscle mass most closely correlate with increases in strength. The human body (with the assistance of 'enhancements'...meaning of course NITRO TECH.) is capable of gaining virtually unlimited strength. However, increases in recovery ability can only grow 20-40% above baseline. (I don't have a citation for this, but I read it in a difficult to find article and it has stuck with me...I can find if needed) This is why advanced bodybuilders need MORE rest than beginners. Dorian started training HIT when he realized he was no longer making gains. HIT allows more rest time. This is probably why Arnold and the old school volume guys never got MASSIVE.

Here is an interesting article about muscle recovery:
**broken link removed**

I don't necessarily agree with everything in the article, but I think it offers some light on the physiological properties of weight training. Dorian rested a bodypart for SIX days between workouts.

That's just my take on it. I could be wrong. ...but i did heavy squats yesterday...and I'll need a good 7 or so days to recover. But...I guess if you only squat 225lbs, then you wouldn't need 7 days.

if your going to increase volume the key is doing it progressively, that i why you see pros in all sports whether its bodybuilding, powerlifting, Olympic lifting , pitching in baseball , all handle much higher volumes than beginners or intermediates. the body can do amazing things if you understand how to progress volume. take look at what louie simmons does , he understands greater performance comes from eventually being able to do more work, looks how often they train muscle groups. the key is understanding how to move forward while still recovering. look at what Christian Thibedeau(sp) does with eccentricless training to increase volume but not kill recovering. he is on the right track , again someone that understands to keep moving forward work capacity has to increase and more volume eventually has to happen.

Everything Leroy said is true, doesn't mean it can't be done another way, but what he said is very true 100 percent spot on

to say arnold was not massive is a gross understatement, do you really think Dorians arm or chest measurement is much bigger than arnolds. its not. guys back then did not go for as big leg size plus their waists were much smaller. the bigger waist and bigger legs are what accounts for weight differences, not the fact Dorian did less volume. if you want to play the look who is bigger game Victor richards was a volume freak to the biggest degree, and he was bigger than dorian. many massive guys train high volume. richards used to do one exercise per workout and do sets over and over again for 3 to 4 hours and he would repeat this almost every day.

now were i would agree with you is after many years of being advanced with high volumes it is possible to train less, things almost come back full circle, but this takes a long time. Tom Platz squatted at high volumes for many years and built massive legs but near the end he scaled back to doing leg workouts only once every 2 weeks, but that is not what built his legs in the first place . the intensity and load demands got so high he felt this was the only way to go, so in a way your right but you can't do this type of thing to early, could you be right Dorian found the right time to do this for his particular case , yes that is possible

 

[mule]

I disagree... You should never tax muscle so much that it takes 7 days to recover - you have to think about not just the muscle that you trained but your CNS also... If your CNS is fried then how can you train the other body parts effectively?

but your cns can also be trained to take greater demands. you know a program like built beyond belief takes a lot of Leroy says here and it is a great program. i think it is one of the better ones out there

 

[mule]

Another thing that most dont think about. Good point. I used to do what that poster did and drive the target muscle into the ground once a week and it worked for awhile, but eventually it proved counterproductive. I sometimes think that the more advanced a lifter becomes, the lower the volume that is needed since the weights become much heavier and the lifter is able to achieve a much higher level of intensity.

its not all about sets and reps though, its also about total volume based on how much actual weight you lifted in how much time

 

[buselmo]

just ask yourself this... do you really believe that every other athlete out there, besides new age bodybuilders who train a muscle once every 5 or 7 days, is overtraining their CNS and are going downhill performance wise week after week?

and then you say nutrition is 90% of the equation, when you bring gymnists in as an example you say "yeah, they're more muscular at 130 lbs than any 130 lbs bodybuilder, but they can't get bigger"... but you forget that that gymnist trains 3 hours a day (training which is much more demanding on the CNS) and eating only 1500-2000 cals per day while he's at 4% fat. and then you say "but their genetics made them like that", then you see them after they quit or during their offseason when they don't train and they look like dog turds... then you say drugs... when in fact they are probably on no more 500 mg total of "leukic" and 4 ius of George Henry and you're on 2 grams per week with 10 iu of GH eating 5000-6000 cals per day to look like a fat slob with a 42 inch waist while the gymnist has a good old 26 inch waist with 16 inch arms that look like they're 20 inches.

Maybe it's just me... but after years and years of doing low volume and shit like that... then trying gironda trainiing, old school training, full body workouts, lots of sets and training a bodypart 2-3 times per week without the need to crack up my joints by benching a weight that'll probably do more damage to my system than good... i found out that i really look better with the high volume, high frequency, light weight crap. yes, you get smaller, but you look better.

shitty diet + high volume high frequency training + no drugs = shit physique
great diet + high volume and frequency training + moderate high drug intake = looking awesome.


just to make this post longer ... i remember that i always used to be hungry when i started out bodybuilding... then when i switched to lower volume and heavy weights and shits like that, i never got hungry... to a point where i was 215 lbs (@5'7) and i could barely eat 1500 cals if i based my diet on hunger.
went back to high volume... man... all i can tell you is that i'm eating 70-80 grams of protein per meal with 100 grams of carbs and i'm hungry 3 hours later.... i have to wait 2-3 more hours to eat a meal while i'm starving so i don't over eat. almost 3000 cals per day now and i'm still hungry.

funny how overtraining with high volume = no appetite
and training with low volume so you don't overtrain = hunger cuz of all the muscle you're building...
and i'm feeling the exact opposite.


anyway... just so no one gets their panties in a bunch... i'm just saying this cuz it's what i saw and experienced... no science, no research no crap... and i'm not advising anyone to do this, but i'm just telling you what i know

 

[rippedyearround]

Not true at all. Needing to rest 7 days after a workout simply means you did too much volume(IE too many sets). When you do lots of sets for a muscle what happens is you end up doing many sets that end up being lighter and lighter weight as the workout progresses because you are fatigued. If you keep the workouts short you hit each muscle with the max weight, get out and rest, and then come back and hit it hard again in about 3 or 4 days max.

Before I had my heart attack I was doing 3 sets of squats starting with 455 lbs for 10-12 reps. I would only rest 3 days before I did my squats again. I was adding strength every month and gaining some size.

Interesting. I agree that 7 days rest could be the result of doing too many sets. However, I feel like when I go for my 10 rep MAX, it takes 7 days (or so) to fully recover such that I am able to BEAT the previous 10 rep MAX. I just can't understand how I could do another day of squats 3-4 days after doing one 10 rep true MAX. And again, I'm doing one set of heavy squats.

I'm just trying to understand how progression in strength could occur as quickly as 3-4 days? Are you using one exercise per muscle group? Because I usually perform a few warm up sets, and then ONE all out intense set shooting for 10 reps. BUT, I do usually perform 3-4 exercises. SO...maybe the recovery requirement is from doing too many exercises. I train more along the lines of Dorian Yates HIT style...

SO, if i understand correctly, you are saying a low-volume, high-frequency style of training will illicit strength gains faster?

 

[rippedyearround]

if your going to increase volume the key is doing it progressively, that i why you see pros in all sports whether its bodybuilding, powerlifting, Olympic lifting , pitching in baseball , all handle much higher volumes than beginners or intermediates. the body can do amazing things if you understand how to progress volume. take look at what louie simmons does , he understands greater performance comes from eventually being able to do more work, looks how often they train muscle groups. the key is understanding how to move forward while still recovering. look at what Christian Thibedeau(sp) does with eccentricless training to increase volume but not kill recovering. he is on the right track , again someone that understands to keep moving forward work capacity has to increase and more volume eventually has to happen.

Everything Leroy said is true, doesn't mean it can't be done another way, but what he said is very true 100 percent spot on

to say arnold was not massive is a gross understatement, do you really think Dorians arm or chest measurement is much bigger than arnolds. its not. guys back then did not go for as big leg size plus their waists were much smaller. the bigger waist and bigger legs are what accounts for weight differences, not the fact Dorian did less volume. if you want to play the look who is bigger game Victor richards was a volume freak to the biggest degree, and he was bigger than dorian. many massive guys train high volume. richards used to do one exercise per workout and do sets over and over again for 3 to 4 hours and he would repeat this almost every day.

now were i would agree with you is after many years of being advanced with high volumes it is possible to train less, things almost come back full circle, but this takes a long time. Tom Platz squatted at high volumes for many years and built massive legs but near the end he scaled back to doing leg workouts only once every 2 weeks, but that is not what built his legs in the first place . the intensity and load demands got so high he felt this was the only way to go, so in a way your right but you can't do this type of thing to early, could you be right Dorian found the right time to do this for his particular case , yes that is possible

I'm trying to understand the different schools of thought here. Above, I am discussing the low-volume, high-frequency theory with Maldorf. But, here, you are suggesting that over the long-term, volume eventually has to increase to illicit continual gains? I don't understand how these two theories can ultimately lead to the same end?

(AND: yes, Arnold had AMAZING arms and chest development. I agree it was a total understatement. )

"the bigger waist and bigger legs are what accounts for weight differences, not the fact Dorian did less volume." - Do you think it possible that the reason why Dorian was able to achieve bigger legs was BECAUSE he did less volume? Or are you suggesting that it is more of the EMPHASIS that is placed on leg development today as opposed to then?

I guess the question is this:

WHY ARE THERE SO MANY THEORIES ON MUSCULAR GROWTH WHEN EVERY THEORY SEEMS TO HAVE EVIDENCE OF ITS VALIDITY?

Arnold = huge = high-volume

Dorian = huge = low-volume

Jay Cutler = huge = super high volume

Ronnie Coleman = huge = "Everybody wanna be a bodybuilder, but nobody wanna lift any heavy-ass weight!"

I'm just having trouble finding the truth in it all. And...I don't subscribe to the 'find what works for you'...i think it's a little more scientific than that. Idk. Everyone's input it much appreciated.

 

[Nikopapp]

When I started working out back in 1995, I did a 3 on, 1 off rotation and grew like a weed.

Then the "overtraining" rage came about, and the consensus was to only hit a body part once per week.

I did this from around 1998-2006, and saw very little results in growth.

I switched to DC, and saw growth again.

Now with Phil, I am actually seeing results weekly and not killing my joints with the extremely heavy weights every workout.

So I do agree that training frequently is much better.

 

[Nikopapp]

Interesting. I agree that 7 days rest could be the result of doing too many sets. However, I feel like when I go for my 10 rep MAX, it takes 7 days (or so) to fully recover such that I am able to BEAT the previous 10 rep MAX. I just can't understand how I could do another day of squats 3-4 days after doing one 10 rep true MAX. And again, I'm doing one set of heavy squats.

I'm just trying to understand how progression in strength could occur as quickly as 3-4 days? Are you using one exercise per muscle group? Because I usually perform a few warm up sets, and then ONE all out intense set shooting for 10 reps. BUT, I do usually perform 3-4 exercises. SO...maybe the recovery requirement is from doing too many exercises. I train more along the lines of Dorian Yates HIT style...

SO, if i understand correctly, you are saying a low-volume, high-frequency style of training will illicit strength gains faster?

You have two different schools of thought....stronger on an exercise does not always equate to more muscle.

Bodybuilder's should not measure success or progress by weights going up on lifts....but by how they look in the mirror.

I too was guilty of playing the "weights need to go up" game for way too long.

Now at the ripe old age of 34 my body is feeling the effects of going as heavy as possible every single workout for years on end.

 

[brineal]

Lately I've been watching all of Leroy Colbert's YouTube videos. He gives fantastic bodybuilding advice and I love his attitude. I hadn't really learned anything new, but the way he explains things in a different, simple way is interesting to me.

About a week ago he released this video. What he said surprised me. He said all these bodybuilders doing things like "chest/tri day, back/bi day, legs" are doing it all wrong. He says you should never leave a body part alone for more than two days. On the third day, your muscle memory is gone and you have to "learn" the exercise again. I think he did full body workouts. I have a four day split and I am still seeing results after years, so what I'm doing is working, I'm just not sure if it's working optimally.

Just listen to him. Tell me what you think

YouTube - mryorkielover's Channel

leroy colbert was a gifted bodybuilder, but he should go do some reading on motor learning cause he is not even close to being right..if what he said was true, then why do people remember how to ride bikes, swim, etc. after years of not doing the activity?

 

[kingpeon]

leroy colbert was a gifted bodybuilder, but he should go do some reading on motor learning cause he is not even close to being right..if what he said was true, then why do people remember how to ride bikes, swim, etc. after years of not doing the activity?

You may remember how to execute a particular activity after a time off, but are you going to be as proficient at that exercise, with an optimal mind-muscle connection, as you would be if you hadn't taken the time off?

I know I can go a couple of weeks without doing an exercise and after the first work set it's like I just did 5 sets yesterday. Whereas when I train the same muscle group everyday for a few weeks I feel strong and locked into it, mentally and physically, after just a few reps.

I'm all about applying bro-science to my training when that bro is me.

 

[cachexic]

Brineal that was a clever point, but I think it may be a little too apples and oranges as kingpeon pointed out.

 

[maldorf]

Interesting. I agree that 7 days rest could be the result of doing too many sets. However, I feel like when I go for my 10 rep MAX, it takes 7 days (or so) to fully recover such that I am able to BEAT the previous 10 rep MAX. I just can't understand how I could do another day of squats 3-4 days after doing one 10 rep true MAX. And again, I'm doing one set of heavy squats.

I'm just trying to understand how progression in strength could occur as quickly as 3-4 days? Are you using one exercise per muscle group? Because I usually perform a few warm up sets, and then ONE all out intense set shooting for 10 reps. BUT, I do usually perform 3-4 exercises. SO...maybe the recovery requirement is from doing too many exercises. I train more along the lines of Dorian Yates HIT style...

SO, if i understand correctly, you are saying a low-volume, high-frequency style of training will illicit strength gains faster?

Low volume high intensity and high frequency worked great for me. I would do just 3 sets per bodypart, with the exception of back which I did 6. I would hit everything 2x per week and claves 4x. Im still doing it today after my heart attack.
Like I said, I had been the tradtional 4 or 5 day split for many years and wasnt making much progress. I went to hitting everything 2x per week and having a short workout and I jumped in strength so fast that I ended up hurting myself on a couple of lifts because my joints were ready for the weight! My muscles got stronger really fast, and infact I had to pace myself and hold back a bit in order for my bones/joints to catch up!

 

[brineal]

You may remember how to execute a particular activity after a time off, but are you going to be as proficient at that exercise, with an optimal mind-muscle connection, as you would be if you hadn't taken the time off?

I know I can go a couple of weeks without doing an exercise and after the first work set it's like I just did 5 sets yesterday. Whereas when I train the same muscle group everyday for a few weeks I feel strong and locked into it, mentally and physically, after just a few reps.

I'm all about applying bro-science to my training when that bro is me.

ok i want you to get proficient at any motor task, take three days off and tell me if youre still proficient at it... if what the post i quoted said was true then people like factory workers etc. would all lose their ability to assemble parts after a long holiday weekend!... if you stopped using your manual transmission for three days you would have to relearn... it simply does not work that way

 

[maldorf]

ok i want you to get proficient at any motor task, take three days off and tell me if youre still proficient at it... if what the post i quoted said was true then people like factory workers etc. would all lose their ability to assemble parts after a long holiday weekend!... if you stopped using your manual transmission for three days you would have to relearn... it simply does not work that way

The difference comes in when you have to perform that movement with a lot of force. Sure you dont forget how to pedal a bike, but you do lose some of the efficiency that you used to have and end up using burning more energy to accomplish the same thing.

When I was in high school I used to cycle about 100-200 miles a week. I found that when I would cycle every single day that I became better and better at it. The riding motion became easier and easier and even began to feel different to me. I learned how to get my calves into it more etc. If I took a break I had to relearn the fine points of it all again.

 

[brineal]

The difference comes in when you have to perform that movement with a lot of force. Sure you dont forget how to pedal a bike, but you do lose some of the efficiency that you used to have and end up using burning more energy to accomplish the same thing.

When I was in high school I used to cycle about 100-200 miles a week. I found that when I would cycle every single day that I became better and better at it. The riding motion became easier and easier and even began to feel different to me. I learned how to get my calves into it more etc. If I took a break I had to relearn the fine points of it all again.

absolutely, but there is no way that you lose a significant portion of muscular strength/endurance or even cardiovascular adaptations in a matter of three days..

 

[maldorf]

absolutely, but there is no way that you lose a significant portion of muscular strength/endurance or even cardiovascular adaptations in a matter of three days..

No, youre absolutely right there. It does add up though if you train like that for months on end. Eventually youll start to see less gains in the gym and stagnation. I do think that this is where periodization comes in. I would sometimes go with higher volume and lower frequency training for a few months till I peaked on that and then change things up a bit and go higher frequency.

 

[kingpeon]

The difference comes in when you have to perform that movement with a lot of force. Sure you dont forget how to pedal a bike, but you do lose some of the efficiency that you used to have and end up using burning more energy to accomplish the same thing.

When I was in high school I used to cycle about 100-200 miles a week. I found that when I would cycle every single day that I became better and better at it. The riding motion became easier and easier and even began to feel different to me. I learned how to get my calves into it more etc. If I took a break I had to relearn the fine points of it all again.

Excellent post! Couldn't have said it better.

 

[brineal]

Excellent post! Couldn't have said it better.

haha ok, i guess that you should be worried about forgetting the finer points of your exercises over this weekend

 

[brineal]

No, youre absolutely right there. It does add up though if you train like that for months on end. Eventually youll start to see less gains in the gym and stagnation. I do think that this is where periodization comes in. I would sometimes go with higher volume and lower frequency training for a few months till I peaked on that and then change things up a bit and go higher frequency.

see i think of periodization as a way to keep yourself from those stagnations, as well as a way to have a plan set out for what not only what youre doing now but also what you will be doing however long down the road (using macro/mesocycles etc).. im not saying that its not beneficial to switch things up but the idea that by not performing an exercise for three days your body will forget the required motor pattern or that you will lose significant proficiency in that timeframe is blatantly inaccurate