Let's discuss cholesterol.

[thethinker48]

Its a window. If you look in the window and you see something is wrong then it warrants further evaluation. Dont look in the window and not like what you see so then close the blinds and be like ohh well that doesnt matter anyway.

Dont chase numbers but also dont ignore them. You cant just take a pill or supplement and become healthy just as you cant get jacked just by taking AAS. Its hardwork and consistence and making good choices.

Cardiovascular health is something i feel very strongly about. In fact id say with respect to AAS its what I find myself discussing most. I try to help but some people are just too foolish.

I answer questions and discuss because im trying to be helpful not because i inherently have some outward drive to save all bodybuilders from the evil of steroids..... . you are all adults and make your own informed decisions. But be a man and stick by them because too many times ive gotten PMs years later only when people now have health issues. Just before covid I had a PM from a member here who is fairly well known but hadnt been posting much. He was having bad heart issues, had cardiac enlargement, coronary artery disease and his aortas was a bit big. I remember him posting years ago about lipids and how cholesterol doesnt matter, how low HDL is only temporary and and lots of posts about some supplements. Yea well he showed me his labs from 2020....quite bad and his calcium score was over 1000. I didnt know what to say at that point and i think i only briefly replied. You make your own bed...

Labs are not the end all be all. There are MANY other things are are important. But its foolish to ignore them just because its inconvienant. I dont push drugs or supplements. They are tools..just like AAS. Dont take a statin or a supplement as a crutch because your diet isnt in check, you dont have time for cardio and you like dbol and winny. You can use AAS safely and be healthy

Good to see you pop in every once in a while bro

Another thing that's a bit overlooked is both AAS driven endothelial dysfunction and inflammation; especially with hard androgens. And this isn't stuff you can outright test

A bad lipid profile for an average person is worrisome, a bad lipid profile for a trenbolone using bodybuilder (an oxymoron, I know) is far worse. You have all the keys to open the lock at that point.

 

[gotgame]

Good to see you pop in every once in a while bro

Another thing that's a bit overlooked is both AAS driven endothelial dysfunction and inflammation; especially with hard androgens. And this isn't stuff you can outright test

A bad lipid profile for an average person is worrisome, a bad lipid profile for a trenbolone using bodybuilder (an oxymoron, I know) is far worse. You have all the keys to open the lock at that point.

Exactly. There are direct effects of androgens on your endothelium which are super hard to combat. In fact im not really sure how one would except dont use things like tren etc and if you do dont stay on long.

There are some decent markers and im sure a lot of the guys on this thread know more then me about some of these super specific lab tests for inflammation etc. I personally check hs-crp on myself. not the best but good enough to kill a few birds. You may ask why i dont check all these other labs....well because its not gonna change my management. Im already being close to as healthy as i can/willing to be so im not gonna go too crazy.

We would talk for days about the various causes of endothelial issues and inflammation but as you said just basically dont use things which know can cause issues. Keep blood pressure in check. Dont be a diabetic, dont be a fat ass, yes i think lipids are important. If one is doing everything they can and you are still concerned then look into some other things which may help like say cialis, statins etc

 

[Thappy]

Exactly. There are direct effects of androgens on your endothelium which are super hard to combat. In fact im not really sure how one would except dont use things like tren etc and if you do dont stay on long.

There are some decent markers and im sure a lot of the guys on this thread know more then me about some of these super specific lab tests for inflammation etc. I personally check hs-crp on myself. not the best but good enough to kill a few birds. You may ask why i dont check all these other labs....well because its not gonna change my management. Im already being close to as healthy as i can/willing to be so im not gonna go too crazy.

We would talk for days about the various causes of endothelial issues and inflammation but as you said just basically dont use things which know can cause issues. Keep blood pressure in check. Dont be a diabetic, dont be a fat ass, yes i think lipids are important. If one is doing everything they can and you are still concerned then look into some other things which may help like say cialis, statins etc

You mention tren which is well know to be bad on the lipids along with orals. what other compounds should one stay away from(i understand its highly individual and also have to account for time on and dosage?)

 

[gotgame]

You mention tren which is well know to be bad on the lipids along with orals. what other compounds should one stay away from(i understand its highly individual and also have to account for time on and dosage?)

.
Highly androgenic AAS like tren and many orals although var less so. Soo.. bad things like maybe tren, winny, superdrol, m1t, high dose mast, halo. Yes var can mess with HDL but not super androgenic so i feel better with that.

I dont feel that appropriate dosing of things like test, nandrolone, umm maybe eq, primo, lower dose var to be all too concerning. Im not going to discuss the nandrolone cardiomyopathy studies again but i dont feel like as an AAS its particularly harmful when used at a reasonable dosage.

Things like tren could be used safely but unless you are trying to make a living off your physique i just cant make a good arguement to be using it.

I hope before i die AAS either become legal....which they wont...and in absence of that i hope i see a shift of AAS users who from day one balance the health aspect of using and use aas as a tool responsibly. There is absolutely no reason AAS users cant be healthy and jacked. The culture needs to change.

 

[Knight9]

.
Highly androgenic AAS like tren and many orals although var less so. Soo.. bad things like maybe tren, winny, superdrol, m1t, high dose mast, halo. Yes var can mess with HDL but not super androgenic so i feel better with that.

I dont feel that appropriate dosing of things like test, nandrolone, umm maybe eq, primo, lower dose var to be all too concerning. Im not going to discuss the nandrolone cardiomyopathy studies again but i dont feel like as an AAS its particularly harmful when used at a reasonable dosage.

Things like tren could be used safely but unless you are trying to make a living off your physique i just cant make a good arguement to be using it.

I hope before i die AAS either become legal....which they wont...and in absence of that i hope i see a shift of AAS users who from day one balance the health aspect of using and use aas as a tool responsibly. There is absolutely no reason AAS users cant be healthy and jacked. The culture needs to change.

Unfortunately, I think you have a better chance at AAS becoming legal. There is just no way you can take an 18 to 23 yr old mind(sometimes 15...to 40yr old mind) and convince them to err on the side of caution. The male human psyche...(to different degrees) is flawed.

 

[Thappy]

.
Highly androgenic AAS like tren and many orals although var less so. Soo.. bad things like maybe tren, winny, superdrol, m1t, high dose mast, halo. Yes var can mess with HDL but not super androgenic so i feel better with that.

I dont feel that appropriate dosing of things like test, nandrolone, umm maybe eq, primo, lower dose var to be all too concerning. Im not going to discuss the nandrolone cardiomyopathy studies again but i dont feel like as an AAS its particularly harmful when used at a reasonable dosage.

Things like tren could be used safely but unless you are trying to make a living off your physique i just cant make a good arguement to be using it.

I hope before i die AAS either become legal....which they wont...and in absence of that i hope i see a shift of AAS users who from day one balance the health aspect of using and use aas as a tool responsibly. There is absolutely no reason AAS users cant be healthy and jacked. The culture needs to change.

Thanks for that, at least my approach on that side of things is in the ball park

 

[xpoc]

I find it interesting that there is a trend toward not caring so much about numbers.... but when the rubber hits the road (post heart attack), there is all of a sudden a big focus on numbers. Here is John Meadows and his heart doctor focusing on....NUMBERS. Listen to the doc talk about lowering LDL, lowering Triglycerides and raising HDL. He talks about the rule of 60/60/60 which indicates a heart attack is very unlikely if your LDL is below 60, triglycerides below 60 and HDL above 60. Here is the link:

 

[NEMSZ]

I find it interesting that there is a trend toward not caring so much about numbers.... but when the rubber hits the road (post heart attack), there is all of a sudden a big focus on numbers. Here is John Meadows and his heart doctor focusing on....NUMBERS. Listen to the doc talk about lowering LDL, lowering Triglycerides and raising HDL. He talks about the rule of 60/60/60 which indicates a heart attack is very unlikely if your LDL is below 60, triglycerides below 60 and HDL above 60. Here is the link:

I find that interesting myself, every single person who’s ever said they don’t care about numbers who ends up having a heart attack or heart disease etc cares about those numbers REAL QUICK afterwards...

Also, there was a study posted on this very site that took place over a period of 10 years I believe that talks about a similar ratio, not so much the LDL but that if you can have your HDL/Trig ratio as close to 1:1 as possible or better with a 50/50 or 60/60, the people who did had no cardiac events or issues and had like a 40% less chance of one happening... It was real interesting...

 

[Kaladryn]

I find it interesting that there is a trend toward not caring so much about numbers.... but when the rubber hits the road (post heart attack), there is all of a sudden a big focus on numbers. Here is John Meadows and his heart doctor focusing on....NUMBERS. Listen to the doc talk about lowering LDL, lowering Triglycerides and raising HDL. He talks about the rule of 60/60/60 which indicates a heart attack is very unlikely if your LDL is below 60, triglycerides below 60 and HDL above 60. Here is the link:

If you do have a positive calcium score I would worry about lipids to some extent, it's largely genetic.

 

[NEMSZ]

If you do have a positive calcium score I would worry about lipids to some extent, it's largely genetic.

Do you have any articles or science to back up that CVD in all forms is “largely” genetic? Now yes, I’ve read that all forms of CVD CAN BE genetically passed on, but that a large majority cases are genetic is a different thing...

I’d bet my last $1,000 I can make anyone on this planet get some form of CVD if I told them to over eat shitty processed foods every day, get no exercise, drink alcohol and have high stress environments etc...

Oh wait, that’s like 60%+ of the US lol...

Why is it largely genetic but yet several countries that don’t have the same lifestyle practices as the US have much longer life spans, much smaller prevalences of CVD, Diabetes, High BP, Cancer and Stress...

I can walk into any place, gather any amount of people and 80% of people 50-60 years old are already on 5 medications for all kinds of things... Not a single one of my older Italian/Spaniard family members and family friends etc were on any medications up until their death and lead active lives deep into their 80’s and some late 90’s and even the ones living now who lived that different lifestyle..

I can completely understand those more specific tests meaning more and having more science behind them, but to say the other numbers don’t matter and that CVD as a whole is just largely genetic seems like a far stretch..

 

[Kaladryn]

I don't think John's heart attack had anything to do with cholesterol and I think all this cholesterol info is from the "old camp" I described above.

 

[Kaladryn]

Do you have any articles or science to back up that CVD in all forms is “largely” genetic? Now yes, I’ve read that all forms of CVD CAN BE genetically passed on, but that a large majority cases are genetic is a different thing...

I’d bet my last $1,000 I can make anyone on this planet get some form of CVD if I told them to over eat shitty processed foods every day, get no exercise, drink alcohol and have high stress environments etc...

Oh wait, that’s like 60%+ of the US lol...

Why is it largely genetic but yet several countries that don’t have the same lifestyle practices as the US have much longer life spans, much smaller prevalences of CVD, Diabetes, High BP, Cancer and Stress...

I can walk into any place, gather any amount of people and 80% of people 50-60 years old are already on 5 medications for all kinds of things... Not a single one of my older Italian/Spaniard family members and family friends etc were on any medications up until their death and lead active lives deep into their 80’s and some late 90’s and even the ones living now who lived that different lifestyle..

I can completely understand those more specific tests meaning more and having more science behind them, but to say the other numbers don’t matter and that CVD as a whole is just largely genetic seems like a far stretch..

The "farm study" is the most famous one. CVD is largely genetic, this is why many people who eat like crap and are very overweight (most americans) can have a zero calcium score. You'll have to do your own research on this one, the rabbit hole goes very deep.

 

[thethinker48]

The straight dope on cholesterol – Part I - Peter Attia

Welcome to a topic near and dear.

peterattiamd.com

#129 - Tom Dayspring, M.D.: The latest insights into cardiovascular disease and lipidology - Peter Attia

“Atherogenic lipoproteins are really the issue behind clinical atherosclerotic vascular disease. … The data has just become so overwhelming.” —Tom Dayspring

peterattiamd.com

Tom Dayspring was recently on Peter's podcast again; very much worth a listen

Atherosclerosis is a disease of age primarily. Fatty streaks start forming as early as 10 years old. The standard American diet has done a great deal in increasing it's prevalence; but chances are you get old enough, you will acquire it (variable severity), and it's only when you have a thrombotic event that most people would become even aware of it, doesn't mean you don't have soft and hard plaque build up.

 

[old timer]

My HDL is always fairly high and my trigs are always fairly low, but my LDL has been above the healthy range. I dropped my LDL significantly and the only changes were dietary (exercise and lifestyle/stress were unchanged):

* I started eating two packets of oatmeal (for full disclosure, it's the raisin, dates, and walnut variety with 11g of sugar per packet)
* I add even more walnuts to my oatmeal. I'm guessing here, but it's probably another 150 calories or so of walnuts.
* I eat about three cans of beans every week (each can is ~3 servings). You might have to experiment with different beans to see which ones "sit well" (no pun ) with you, and Great Northern beans is what I eat.
* I like eating healthy food (chicken, salmon, 90/10 ground beef, fruits, and vegetables), but once every week or two, I'd eat a bunch of sugary foods, and I cut way back on both the frequency and volume of these events, too.

 

[gotgame]

I find it interesting that there is a trend toward not caring so much about numbers.... but when the rubber hits the road (post heart attack), there is all of a sudden a big focus on numbers. Here is John Meadows and his heart doctor focusing on....NUMBERS. Listen to the doc talk about lowering LDL, lowering Triglycerides and raising HDL. He talks about the rule of 60/60/60 which indicates a heart attack is very unlikely if your LDL is below 60, triglycerides below 60 and HDL above 60. Here is the link:

The LDL number is important. Many studies have shown almost NO progression of coronary soft plaque when you start dropping LDL below 60.

Im not saying people should be walking around with LDLs below 60...but if you start to get plaque and the things you are doing arent stopping the progression then my focus would be to drop that LDL below 60 and then work out the other details.


I havent followed John Meadows stuff recently but i did watch his video after he has his heart attack. I wasnt very happy with how he was managed. he had also said his coronaries were perfectly clean etc....oh really.... if they are that clean then why are you taking measures to prevent plaque build up that is quite aggressive?? exactly... perfectly clean arteries do not need an LDL below 60 not even for prevention. I did not watch the video so maybe the doctor isnt talking about john and he is just talking in general.... i dunno.

I do not know all the details nor do i know john ( he seems like a genuine nice guy). I had replied to his thread months ago and i still stand by that. I believe he had CAD and had a plaque rupture and had a heart attack. at the time he said he didnt have heart damage. I had told him IF he did have a MI then there is damage and it can show up as a delayed decrease in EF as in the short term myocytes can overcompensate. I never found out if he was taking cardiac remodeling meds post MI and all i say was a large list of supplements etc.... in my opinion he needed to be on tried and true post MI meds.

Months later he posts that is EF was infact decreased to like somewhere in the 30's i think.

Remember...cardiac calcium score is just a screening tool....we dont actually care all that much about the calcified plaque we care about the non calcified. They do correlate though but not all the time.

 

[xpoc]

I don't think John's heart attack had anything to do with cholesterol and I think all this cholesterol info is from the "old camp" I described above.

That is kind of my point. If John's heart attack had nothing to do with cholesterol, then why are he and his heart doctor focusing so much on his cholesterol after the fact?

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

Unfortunately John seems to surround himself with not-so-stellar doctors (if not outright quacks like Serrano) for no other reason than them being familiar with bodybuilding and PEDs.

 

[Elvia1023]

Unfortunately John seems to surround himself with not-so-stellar doctors (if not outright quacks like Serrano) for no other reason than them being familiar with bodybuilding and PEDs.

I haven't seen many Serrano vids but have always thought the same when I did.

 

[Kaladryn]

That is kind of my point. If John's heart attack had nothing to do with cholesterol, then why are he and his heart doctor focusing so much on his cholesterol after the fact?

This is what the medical dogma tells them do and this is the only thing they know how to do. If anything, John should be talking to an expert hematologist, not a cardiologist, but maybe there is information I'm unaware of.

 

[Knight9]

I just wanted to put these here as a place people could reference. Also, Paul Saladino was in Joe Rogan's studio Thursday...so there is a podcast likely dropping next week with his ideas. It should be pretty interesting although I am not necessarily an advocate of the carnivore diet.

As this has already been shared, I am sharing again since it is fantasitc. Dayspring & Attia

Pretty sure I shared this too...Saladino and Feldman

Ivor Cummins talks to Nadir Ali

Ivor Cummins and Dave Feldman