Low e2 and water retention

[fitzchivalry]

Have you taken anything else besides test or proviron on its own?

 

[phoenix2]

Have you taken anything else besides test or proviron on its own?

No. I want to try masteron on the next cutting cycle with low test. Maybe even lower than 150/week, because 150 plus 50 mg daily of proviron put my free test levels 3 times above the top of the refernce range.

 

[phoenix2]

I bloat with low e2 more than high e2 believe it or not, don't know why

When i had an e2 reading of 50 pg/ml on 250 of test e/week i looked full, vascular and pumped.
When, later, on the same amount of test my e2 reading was 8 pg/ml due to letrozole, i looked like shit.

 

[Musclemechanic76]

When i had an e2 reading of 50 pg/ml on 250 of test e/week i looked full, vascular and pumped.

When, later, on the same amount of test my e2 reading was 8 pg/ml due to letrozole, i looked like shit.

I do better with higher estro around 50 pg/ml
When I get too dry and Low estro less vascular and flat!! Plus no sensitivity in bedroom, lose interest.


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[phoenix2]

Is it possible that too much free test can cause water retention by itself?

 

[fitzchivalry]

Is it possible that too much free test can cause water retention by itself?

Don't think that's your issue as you were taking proviron and test and were fine, correct?

Testosterone can cause bloat unrelated to estrogen (all aas can, I believe, as well).

I do believe that estrogen levels are more affected when on trt and taking ai's. As the studies seem to show reductions of 50% or so from what I remember when natural but on trt, etc. you see guys with levels <10 when using pretty mild doses in comparison to the doses used in those studies.

 

[Crazy_jay]

I do believe that estrogen levels are more affected when on trt and taking ai's. As the studies seem to show reductions of 50% or so from what I remember when natural but on trt, etc. you see guys with levels <10 when using pretty mild doses in comparison to the doses used in those studies.

I think you're right with that statement. While guys are always referencing the aromasin study on natural males and claiming its extremely hard to crash e, it's just not true. Many guys using exo test have crash their e2 and I think I know why.

I recently came across a study on ai's in males and within that study, it mentioned that ai's dont really penetrate the testes and block aromatase from converting to estrogen there. So in natural males, no matter the dose of aromasin, they will continue to convert test to estrogen in their testes. In someone who's on trt or blasting, their testes are shut down and not producing any test to convert to estrogen, making the ai more effective. I think that's also the same reason AI's seem to have no effect on the estrogen produced from using hcg. AI's are less effective in natural males.

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[Crazy_jay]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3143915/

Estradiol is the most potent estrogen produced in the body. It is synthesized from testosterone or estrone via aromatase or 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, respectively. The total estradiol production rate in the human male has been estimated to be 35-45 μg (0.130-0.165 μmol) per day, of which approximately 20% is directly produced by the testes [13,14]. Roughly 60% of circulating estradiol is derived from direct testicular secretion or from conversion of testicular androgens. The remaining fraction is derived from peripheral conversion of adrenal androgens [15].

In men third-generation aromatase inhibitors will decrease the mean plasma estradiol/testosterone ratio by 77% [28,29]. This finding probably relates to the high plasma concentrations of testosterone, a major precursor for estradiol synthesis in adult men. As aromatase inhibition is dose dependent it has been suggested that aromatase is less suppressed in the testis compared to adipose and muscle tissue, explaining the incomplete efficacy of aromatase inhibition in men. Aromatase activity is high in the testes and the molar ratio of testosterone to letrozole is much higher in the testes compared with adipose and muscle tissue. When testicular testosterone and estradiol synthesis are suppressed and testosterone is administered exogenously in combination with letrozole, however, the estradiol/testosterone ratio is suppressed by 81% [30], which is only marginally different from the suppression of this ratio in intact men after treatment with letrozole. This incomplete suppression may be regarded as advantageous for it prevents excessive reduction of estrogen levels in men and the possible associated adverse effects.

Now this study does only say 4% suppression difference but I think it's got to be higher than that. I've crashed my estrogen in less than two weeks using 25mg aromasin ed on 500mg test yet natural guys can take same dose for two weeks and still be low normal estrogen? And recover to baseline in 6 days? I'm going on four weeks and my estrogen is still low.

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[phoenix2]

I think you're right with that statement. While guys are always referencing the aromasin study on natural males and claiming its extremely hard to crash e, it's just not true. Many guys using exo test have crash their e2 and I think I know why.

I recently came across a study on ai's in males and within that study, it mentioned that ai's dont really penetrate the testes and block aromatase from converting to estrogen there. So in natural males, no matter the dose of aromasin, they will continue to convert test to estrogen in their testes. In someone who's on trt or blasting, their testes are shut down and not producing any test to convert to estrogen, making the ai more effective. I think that's also the same reason AI's seem to have no effect on the estrogen produced from using hcg. AI's are less effective in natural males.

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That's exactly how it is.
Aromatase inhibitors can't reach testicular aromatase in sufficients concentrations, so when you have a suppressed hpta like when taking exogenous androgens, AIs can reduce E2 levels greatly than in a natural person.
Infact when i've taken aromasin on its own i never had problems related to low e2.
Because lowering E2 in a natural decreases estrogen's negative feedback on hpta which leads to an increase in LH levels.
LH stimulates Leydig cells to produce testosterone and other steroids, but it also stimolate the activity of the intratesticular aromatase.