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Lowered ejection fraction......causes?

Test-o-lean

Active member
Registered
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
300
I'll try to make this as short as possible.

In 2013, I got a echocardiogram done by my own choice just to make sure I was ok in the heart department. Both my echo and ekg came back normal other than a slightly enlarged left ventricle. At that time my ejection fraction was 60%-65%. My blood work had and always was normal in every catagory.

I've always had blood work done atleast twice a year at minimum. I've always been good and never had anyting out of range to speak of.

Now skip forward to May of 2016. I decided to go back to the dr and get a stress test and echocardiogram done just to be safe. My dad died at 55 of a massive heart attack. The stress test was the kind where they inject the stuff into your arm via IV and then take pics before and after treadmill work. A few days later I had the echo done. Both came back "normal", BUT my ejection fraction came back 55%. I asked the dr why it would have dropped from 2013. He didn't really have any answers.

Note: I'm 100% honest with my dr about AAS and GH use. He's always known since the first time I went.

Now, the only thing that was different from 2013 to 2016 was less cardio and the introduction of GH at 4 I/U's a day. Diet was generally the same. Overall clean with some cheat days. Training was the same 5-6 days a week. AAS use was the same. On most of the time, but never more than 750mg per week and alternated from that down to 300mg per week. Cardio was a little less over the last 3 years. My diet kept me from having to do much cardio.

I aware 55% is still normal, but it bothers me that it fell from 2013. I certainly don't want it to fall another 10% over the next 3 years. Can the test have a variance in them that is accepted as normal? Meaning having it done at different locations, different machines, giving slightly varied results?

About a month ago I dropped back to 250mgs a week of T. Dropped GH back to 2 I/U's a day. I've dramatically increased cardio. Usually 25 min 4-5 times a day fasted in the AM and 10-15 min post workout 5-6 days a week as well. Some is HIIT and some is steady state.

I'm currently 36 yrs old. 225lbs. 5'11. ~12%BF. I don't take any meds other than a lisinopril to keep BP in check. I may not even need it now that the AAS dose is so low.

Should I be concerned about this? Should I never go above TRT doses again? Should I stop the low dose GH?

I plan to get another echo done in 3-6 months to see if the increased cardio has helped get the ejection fraction back up to 60%+.

Any advice would be appreciated.
 
Last edited:
I'm an RN in a cardiac IMC. Obviously you know using the substances we use are known to lead to cardiac growth and associated reduction in efficiency.

That being said, a repeat echo is unnecessary but if you have the time and money knock yourself out. Nearly every stress and echo report I've ever read has a variation of 5%+/- Meaning it could have just been a bad reading or a different md interpreting it. The normal stress is reassuring, and a better take away that you have no major ischemic issues. The blockages shown on a stress will kill you a hell of a lot quicker.

More cardio and lower doses are a great combo to start at.

What cardiac medications do you take? There are medications to assist your ef and reduce the rate of cardiac hypertrophy.
 
I'm grateful we have cardiac specialists here to chime in like the gentleman above me. Hopefully gotgame chimes in here too. I think he said something to the degree of having a larger chest can make it harder to measure.

Personally, an echo I had in 2011 said 65% EF but it's always been 60% since. I don't know if it went down or the readings varied. I'm not going to lie, it does bother me a little. Did you get a Simpson's Rule EF too? Also, what is the size of your left atrium from the echo?

Supplements that improve EF include Ubiquinol, Pycnogenol, Ribose, Citrulline Malate, and Arjuna.
 
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If they said the heart was normal that also means that wall motion was normal and blood flow was normal through the heart. That is good news. Usually if there is disease the walls of the heart don't move as they normally do. In my case when I had cardiomyopathy and after my heart attack parts of the heart's walls are described as being "akinetic", meaning they don't move much or no motion at all. Plus or minus 5% sounds about right to me for the margin of error too. I wouldn't worry too much.
 
I'm grateful we have cardiac specialists here to chime in like the gentleman above me. Hopefully gotgame chimes in here too. I think he said something to the degree of having a larger chest can make it harder to measure.

Personally, an echo I had in 2011 said 65% EF but it's always been 60% since. I don't know if it went down or the readings varied. I'm not going to lie, it does bother me a little. Did you get a Simpson's Rule EF too? Also, what is the size of your left atrium from the echo?

Supplements that improve EF include Ubiquinol, Pycnogenol, Ribose, Citrulline Malate, and Arjuna.
I know you have done a lot of research on this because of your condition. If you had to select the top 2 supplements to improve EF for those with enlarged hearts, which would they be? No mention of curcumin?

Obviously, a rx blood pressure medication is probably #1 as controlled bp is crucial if it's out of range.

My family (father's side) has a genetic propensity for enlarged hearts and early heart failure / low EF. I have not had an echo done and admittedly (considering my habits) fear getting it because I suspect it will show an enlarged heart for my age. I will probably deal with low EF by mid 40s but I don't know for sure, I could have dodged it. Father and uncle both suffer from it and have no history of AAS or bodybuilding. Playing with fire...
 
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I know you have done a lot of research on this because of your condition. If you had to select the top 2 supplements to improve EF for those with enlarged hearts, which would they be? No mention of curcumin?

Obviously, a rx blood pressure medication is probably #1 as controlled bp is crucial if it's out of range.

My family (father's side) has a genetic propensity for enlarged hearts and early heart failure / low EF. I have not had an echo done and admittedly (considering my habits) fear getting it because I suspect it will show an enlarged heart for my age. I will probably deal with low EF by mid 40s but I don't know for sure, I could have dodged it. Father and uncle both suffer from it and have no history of AAS or bodybuilding. Playing with fire...



If I HAD to choose two specifically for EF, they would be ubiquinol and pycnogenol. However, ribose would be a VERY close third. Obviously, curcumin is a staple as well as it seems to be a miracle supplement in every way on paper at least.

As for an rx bp med, Telmisartan appears to have the most benefit on the heart.
 
Thanks for all the replies. They are appreciated. Someone above asked me what cardiac medications I was on. If you are refering to Rx meds from a Dr, I'm not on any as I have no known cardiac issues. So no reason to be on any. As for OTC supps, I take the full gamet including ubiquinol & super bio curcumin. I also just started adding in some D-ribose to my intra drink.
 
Didnt really even read anything thats been said. Im sure nothuman and maldorf got this covered as everything that can be said about AAS, exercise and EF has been said and they are experts on it. One of those guys can PM me if its something new and exciting.
 
Didnt really even read anything thats been said. Im sure nothuman and maldorf got this covered as everything that can be said about AAS, exercise and EF has been said and they are experts on it. One of those guys can PM me if its something new and exciting.



Id be curious to hear how often you see variations in an individual's ejection fraction and how wide the variations can be. I believe I remember you telling me once a larger chest size can make it harder to measure if I understood correctly.
 
I have seen an increase in my EF in the last few years, it was 45% at 310 and heavy training, mild cycles.
Doc tested me a few months ago at around 68-70% he said and was "wowing" when he was reviewing the echo results.
We have been together since 2008 and no talk about AAS but he noted the remarkable change in his opinion was due to stopping the brutally ass to grass heavy training with basic weights. Wasn't really my intent :) but back neck knee and shoulder wear has cut my training weights down down down, but intensity is still up.
 
I have seen an increase in my EF in the last few years, it was 45% at 310 and heavy training, mild cycles.

Doc tested me a few months ago at around 68-70% he said and was "wowing" when he was reviewing the echo results.

We have been together since 2008 and no talk about AAS but he noted the remarkable change in his opinion was due to stopping the brutally ass to grass heavy training with basic weights. Wasn't really my intent :) but back neck knee and shoulder wear has cut my training weights down down down, but intensity is still up.



That's amazing! What do you weigh now? I have a hard time believing it's from lifting less heavy lol. Any additional supps? What's your daily caloric intake?
 
That's amazing! What do you weigh now? I have a hard time believing it's from lifting less heavy lol. Any additional supps? What's your daily caloric intake?

Heavy training causes some severe effects on the heart, I was routinely doing 1,500 lb leg presses and 600 lb squats every leg work out, heavy deads bb rows weighted chins, 450 benches 300 lbs shoulder presses, 200 lb BB curls and tri extensions...decent form too just balls to the wall.
These days:
I also am like 50% more active than I was back then - no cardio and was so destroyed from heavy training and eating I probably got less than 5000 steps a day. Routinely get 15,000 or more (fit bit really helps), and do HIT cardio before every workout for 8 minutes

I posted my stuff in thors thread but here is a recap still heavy but dieting down now goal is 250 by Sept
My weight is currently 286 lbs first thing in the morning and the last time I did this diet I went from 310 to 250 in less than 16 weeks, with absolutely no change in training volume, or cardio of 3-4 hit sessions of 8 minutes on the elliptical and walking several miles a week.
My current diet and supplements are below:
Meal 1
4 omega 3 eggs 20 grams egg whites in olive oil
Bowl of cream of rice with sugar free syrup and almond butter
3 links of turkey sausage
Coffee
Supplements
Vitamin C 3 grams
B-complex 1 capsule
Extra B-1 200 mg
Vitamin D 2- 4000 iu's
Multi vitamin mineral cap (iron free)
Bromelain 500 mgs
Gamma E 400 ius
Bio cucurmin 400 mgs
zinc 20 mg
magnesium 400 mg
selenium 200 mcg
Liv 52 DS 2 tabs
milk thistle 500 mgs
4 grams Lovaza omega 3
quercetin 500 mg
ubiquinol 200 mg
Citrus bergamot 500 mg
baby aspirin

Meal 2
30 almonds raw
carrot/celery mix

Meal 3
2 chicken breasts
½ baked pot
broccoli, carrot celery mix leafy greens

Meal 4
30 raw almonds
apple

Meal 5 pre post intra
powdered muscle 2 scoops
20 grams pepto pro
10 grams bcaa's

Meal 6
50 grams egg whites
cream of rice/honey

Meal 7
Lean steak or grass fed burger
broccoli, carrot celery mix leafy greens

Meal 8
50 grams egg whites
 
Heavy training causes some severe effects on the heart, I was routinely doing 1,500 lb leg presses and 600 lb squats every leg work out, heavy deads bb rows weighted chins, 450 benches 300 lbs shoulder presses, 200 lb BB curls and tri extensions...decent form too just balls to the wall.

These days:

I also am like 50% more active than I was back then - no cardio and was so destroyed from heavy training and eating I probably got less than 5000 steps a day. Routinely get 15,000 or more (fit bit really helps), and do HIT cardio before every workout for 8 minutes



I posted my stuff in thors thread but here is a recap still heavy but dieting down now goal is 250 by Sept

My weight is currently 286 lbs first thing in the morning and the last time I did this diet I went from 310 to 250 in less than 16 weeks, with absolutely no change in training volume, or cardio of 3-4 hit sessions of 8 minutes on the elliptical and walking several miles a week.

My current diet and supplements are below:

Meal 1

4 omega 3 eggs 20 grams egg whites in olive oil

Bowl of cream of rice with sugar free syrup and almond butter

3 links of turkey sausage

Coffee

Supplements

Vitamin C 3 grams

B-complex 1 capsule

Extra B-1 200 mg

Vitamin D 2- 4000 iu's

Multi vitamin mineral cap (iron free)

Bromelain 500 mgs

Gamma E 400 ius

Bio cucurmin 400 mgs

zinc 20 mg

magnesium 400 mg

selenium 200 mcg

Liv 52 DS 2 tabs

milk thistle 500 mgs

4 grams Lovaza omega 3

quercetin 500 mg

ubiquinol 200 mg

Citrus bergamot 500 mg

baby aspirin



Meal 2

30 almonds raw

carrot/celery mix



Meal 3

2 chicken breasts

½ baked pot

broccoli, carrot celery mix leafy greens



Meal 4

30 raw almonds

apple



Meal 5 pre post intra

powdered muscle 2 scoops

20 grams pepto pro

10 grams bcaa's



Meal 6

50 grams egg whites

cream of rice/honey



Meal 7

Lean steak or grass fed burger

broccoli, carrot celery mix leafy greens



Meal 8

50 grams egg whites



Thanks for typing that up. I think it's important to define heavy training when it comes to the effects on the heart. We know it causes an enlarged left ventricule but we know it's not dangerous if it's athlete's heart. My surgeon gave me the green light for heavy training as long as I breathe out every rep to avoid spikes in blood pressure.
 
Thanks for typing that up. I think it's important to define heavy training when it comes to the effects on the heart. We know it causes an enlarged left ventricule but we know it's not dangerous if it's athlete's heart. My surgeon gave me the green light for heavy training as long as I breathe out every rep to avoid spikes in blood pressure.

Yes, also curious about this.
 

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