Magoo's and Lat's Training theories are right again!

[LATS]

i would like to add one thing that really is not going to make much difference in this thread but, funny.. when i was out in golds venicea few years back my wife and i saw tom prince about to do a set on the smith machine incline.. i wanted to say hi but, did not want to interrupt his set so i stayed back a ways. he had a guy spotting him that was of decent size. tom had well over 400 hundred pounds on the incline. he unracked it and proceded to hammer out quite a few reps in explosive style but, was pretty controlled on the negative. when he was done the gentleman spotting him said "you need to slow it down bro". with that prince, now resting against the bench and breathing hard looked at him , frowned and said "you try and slow that down" he then laughed..but, it was a point well taken..

 

[Mr_Magoo]

we are all basicaly on the same page as lats already said there are just small subtleties that i think are pushing us in different directions but arriving at the same conclusion, as lats said to me if u can do a weight with 5 sec negatives for eight reps then the weight is too light and "load" is huge in muscle growth, i think the tut study vs. load study showed load o smore important then the tut

 

[LATS]

amen..load is very important. one thing i want to also comment on that i just now saw was magoos post on the way he does his reps. i also train in that exact same way..one reason is the fact that it just feels more "comfortable" for my body. plus, like magoo stated, i always have a idea what my tut would be. it is not scientific and not without flaws like magoo said but, it is as close as i am going to get. from start to finish my reps like very close to the same. the only thing is the slowing of the positive as fatigue sets in and the negative may speed up just a tad like magoo stated but, i always have a base to compare my sets from since they all basically are performed alike..i may not have gotten my point across like i would have liked but, it is the only way i can explain lol.

 

[Mr_Magoo]

amen..load is very important. one thing i want to also comment on that i just now saw was magoos post on the way he does his reps. i also train in that exact same way..one reason is the fact that it just feels more "comfortable" for my body. plus, like magoo stated, i always have a idea what my tut would be. it is not scientific and not without flaws like magoo said but, it is as close as i am going to get. from start to finish my reps like very close to the same. the only thing is the slowing of the positive as fatigue sets in and the negative may speed up just a tad like magoo stated but, i always have a base to compare my sets from since they all basically are performed alike..i may not have gotten my point across like i would have liked but, it is the only way i can explain lol.

u certainly seem to agree alot with this Magoo character, about fuckin time u saw things my way!

j/k

 

[LATS]

sniff, sniff, i feel as though i am losing my own i.d. who am i ????

 

[homonunculus]

As far as performing the concentric in an "explosive" of very fast way, with a slight stretch-shortening contraction (mini-bounce) when transitioning from the con. to the ecc.

There is a phenomenon of skeletal muscle known as the "catch property" which has been studied very extensively by a Stuart Binder-MacLeod (yes, of the clan MacLeod 8^) - he's been around for a while). Basically this is demontrated with electrical stimulation:

A muscle is stimulated at a very hight frequency for just a few pulse (150Hz for a "doublet" or "triplet") and then the stim. train drops to 40-50Hz, or whatever is needed to keep a smooth fused tetanic contraction. This double or triplet phenomenenon is exactly what happens (measured with EMG) when you to a ballistic start to a contraction (explode or have a mini stretch shortening contraction).

The wild thing is: the muscle will produce MORE FORCE when the 40Hz contraction is preceded by this doublet or triplet than if the 40Hz train were simply inititiate at 40Hz. The mechanism was still being speculated about when I last looked at this literature.

An explosive start triggers the same thing - more force out of the muscle. Obvikously the slight stretch-shortning (mini-bounce) at the ecc-con transition helps out , too.

So, exploding up (this is of big "no shit sherlock" statement) makes the concentric easier, reduces fatige and helps you get more reps. Even without a mini bounce at the transition, this catch property is a good thing - more force out of less muscle = less fatigue.

-Randy

 

[IronMike]

???

As far as performing the concentric in an "explosive" of very fast way, with a slight stretch-shortening contraction (mini-bounce) when transitioning from the con. to the ecc.

There is a phenomenon of skeletal muscle known as the "catch property" which has been studied very extensively by a Stuart Binder-MacLeod (yes, of the clan MacLeod 8^) - he's been around for a while). Basically this is demontrated with electrical stimulation:

A muscle is stimulated at a very hight frequency for just a few pulse (150Hz for a "doublet" or "triplet") and then the stim. train drops to 40-50Hz, or whatever is needed to keep a smooth fused tetanic contraction. This double or triplet phenomenenon is exactly what happens (measured with EMG) when you to a ballistic start to a contraction (explode or have a mini stretch shortening contraction).

The wild thing is: the muscle will produce MORE FORCE when the 40Hz contraction is preceded by this doublet or triplet than if the 40Hz train were simply inititiate at 40Hz. The mechanism was still being speculated about when I last looked at this literature.

An explosive start triggers the same thing - more force out of the muscle. Obvikously the slight stretch-shortning (mini-bounce) at the ecc-con transition helps out , too.

So, exploding up (this is of big "no shit sherlock" statement) makes the concentric easier, reduces fatige and helps you get more reps. Even without a mini bounce at the transition, this catch property is a good thing - more force out of less muscle = less fatigue.

-Randy

Interesting... can I hear more opinions?

I guess I have found it productive to utilise this "mini-bounce", particularly when bulking. Not a cheat bouce but an elastic rebound at the point of muscle stretch.

But couldn't this momentum generated from the explosive start lessen the work performed throughout the rep by minimising the total weight lifted (subtracting weight's velocity once moving)? IronMike

 

[Kyubert]

myotactic stretch reflex. This recruits more fibers

 

[mike man]

Re: ???

Interesting... can I hear more opinions?

I guess I have found it productive to utilise this "mini-bounce", particularly when bulking. Not a cheat bouce but an elastic rebound at the point of muscle stretch.

But couldn't this momentum generated from the explosive start lessen the work performed throughout the rep by minimising the total weight lifted (subtracting weight's velocity once moving)? IronMike

Actually IM, I don't think the momentum would have that much of an effect at all on the amount of force you would have to generate for this reason:
You should/would be using more weight than you normal (because of the strength increase on the stretch "bounce") so the amount of force needed to keep the weights moving would be greater.
More wt = more muscle recruitment.
Very good discussion.

 

[npcnj8]

LATS, just curious, what kind of routine are you using now? I followed theroutine that you posted in the storytime thread that your buddy uses, and it worked great. You still training like that?

 

[LATS]

VERY CLOSE.. basically, i have gone performing just one exercise a bodypart for three total sets..i found that when i tried to do three different exercises for only one set, i would sometimes "blow" that set because i / my body was not used to the movement and i felt the set was not as good as it could have been..so for example, the other day i did chest, shoulders, back, tri's.. chest was incline db press, shoulders was smith machine military press, back was chins, and tris was close grip bench..all performed for three sets with reps between the 10 and 6 mark.. now today, i will perform the same workout but, i might change the exercises a bit..chest will be weighted dips, shoulders might be wide grip upright rows, back will be dumbell rows, and tris will be reverse grip bench on the smith.. again, all for three sets .. like i have said in the past , it is all about overload and frequency.. i was doing this for a while when i first strted talking to phil..since then i have taken some of his ideas and incorparated them into the current routine.. i have always agreed that a muscle does not have to be hit from a ton of angles (although i used to do this and enjoyed the workouts) but, all that matters is that the musle is overloaded and hit as often as your body will allow..i use incline db's for chest not because i feel that they are great for the upper chest persae, but because i am stronger in pressing movements at a slight incline..i only pick movements that allow me to handle a lot of weight..if i did flat bench i would have to drop the weight by 20 pounds and that would diffinitely not be overloading the chest.. but, again if you are enjoying the workout outlined before, then do not change it.. if gains are forthcoming stay with it as long as it works out for.. then maybe change to what i outlined above.. as long as you are able to handle good weight and are getting stronger but, are still able to hit that bodypart twice a week.. the it is working.. after all, whoi does not like to hit chest or back more often lol..

 

[MAINEVENT]

LATS

So your training each bodypart 2 x's per week. Are your 3 sets to failure?

 

[LATS]

WELL, CLOSE.. i push it pretty hard.. some sets are diffinitely failure but, a few i could have maybe gotten another if i loosened up the form a little.. but, i am trying to be a little better on style because i am nursing a shoulder that does not want to heal..so if ya put a gun to my head i might be able to squeeze out another..

 

[MAINEVENT]

LATS

So is the routine working out pretty well for you this way at twice a week? I saw you posted you were going to go back to DC style because thats when you were making the best gains.

 

[LATS]

yeah, i will be sticking with this for right now..i believe in overload plus frequency, which dc's program is based around also.. but, like i said, i at the moment can not push to the max because of my knees and shoulders..the post at intensemuscle.com was not mine.. (if that is the post you are referring too) A buddy of mine was using my computer when he posted that.. he is a staunch believer in dc's program.. like i said before, there are many ways to skin a cat.. if you look at phil's program it is very similar to dc's and vice versa.. but, the key element is still the same..OVERLOAD AND FREQUENCY.. as long as those principals are followed, you will make gains..

 

[Shelby]

bump :lightbulb:

 

[renewlyf]

Thanks for bumping this Shelby!

Damn good read!

 

[Diesed]

yeah, i will be sticking with this for right now..i believe in overload plus frequency, which dc's program is based around also.. but, like i said, i at the moment can not push to the max because of my knees and shoulders..the post at intensemuscle.com was not mine.. (if that is the post you are referring too) A buddy of mine was using my computer when he posted that.. he is a staunch believer in dc's program.. like i said before, there are many ways to skin a cat.. if you look at phil's program it is very similar to dc's and vice versa.. but, the key element is still the same..OVERLOAD AND FREQUENCY.. as long as those principals are followed, you will make gains..

Where can I take a look at phil's program? I've seen DC's program, but never Phil's. Would love to check it out.

Thanks Lats!

 

[renewlyf]

Where can I take a look at phil's program? I've seen DC's program, but never Phil's. Would love to check it out.

Thanks Lats!

Hire Phil! It's a good and very reasonable investment!

Check these out. I attribute a lot of my progress to hiring Phil. Also reading most of Shelby's e books and incorporating Mtn Dogs diet into the mix.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...91574-renewlyf-some-progress.html#post1378467

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/members-photos/101076-recent-pics.html#post1594033

A 3 1/2 year progression.

 

[Cerberus777]

This is good stuff here! Makes all most all the gear talk belong in the beginner section because most of it is obvious.