Mentzer - only trained 2h/wk?

[Mufasa123]

Is this the pullover for back? I've seen the machine but never used it. Is it universally regarded as effective as pulling movements?

Above sums it up. One of the classic full body workouts was apparently alternating back squats and pullovers (probably barbell). Rumored to be crazy effective esp for beginners. Also hits pecs and tris to some degree. Hence "upper body squat"

When I first started lifting they had a nautilus pullover. Loved that machine and worked well for me. I tried others over the years - good but not great. Very desirable and collectable piece but I don't have room and other than messing around I haven't done a bb or dB or machine pullover in 20 years. I'm not much of a machine guy anyway but that's one I'd own if I had more room.

 

[Mufasa123]

I think you'll like this thread if you haven't already read it. Especially posts by Conan21. I also think the "flip the switch" and "dynamite" analogies are stupid and I used to buy into them full force.

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/think-about-this-one.12977/

Gave it a read. Appreciate the link. Conan comes off as pretty general at first (not wrong but high level), then later reveals how much he really knows. I've read a number of the books he mentioned. Louie who's PL USA articles turned me onto these and Bill Starr's stuff (from Louie but got me training OL) were early influences. Been a fun journey of people and places.

I think Glenn Pendlay used a quote from someone but embraced it "Maybe the most important part of any training program is that the lifter believes in it."

 

[FK86]

Nothing personal but . . .

I think that if you had ever met him and said what you said to him to his face I think your opinion would be different.

That’s all.

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/michael-gundill-theory.4440/page-2#post-39228

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/what-did-guys-think-of-mike-mentzer.4768/#post-42510

 

[alfresco]

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/michael-gundill-theory.4440/page-2#post-39228

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/what-did-guys-think-of-mike-mentzer.4768/#post-42510

Dad was a good guy. We had some good discussions behind the scenes. Wish he was still contributing. He is missed.

 

[alfresco]

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/michael-gundill-theory.4440/page-2#post-39228

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/what-did-guys-think-of-mike-mentzer.4768/#post-42510

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/...istory-lesson-in-fast-gains.41136/post-493359

 

[A50#]

Above sums it up. One of the classic full body workouts was apparently alternating back squats and pullovers (probably barbell). Rumored to be crazy effective esp for beginners. Also hits pecs and tris to some degree. Hence "upper body squat"

When I first started lifting they had a nautilus pullover. Loved that machine and worked well for me. I tried others over the years - good but not great. Very desirable and collectable piece but I don't have room and other than messing around I haven't done a bb or dB or machine pullover in 20 years. I'm not much of a machine guy anyway but that's one I'd own if I had more room.

The gym I currently train at has a Prime pullover machine. Like u described, good but not great. The old school Nautilus we're the best IMO.

 

[Mufasa123]

The gym I currently train at has a Prime pullover machine. Like u described, good but not great. The old school Nautilus we're the best IMO.

This really says something too. Prime is top tier and owns all of Strive's old designs which remain ahead of their time to this day. Some of their pieces are best in class (leg extension being an example) and unique loading options on strength curve (3 plate horns or 3 cam settings). I'd put them up with Nebula of old. I'd also say the most bad ass functional trainer too. And still...their pullover doesn't equal the old Nautilus. Not romanticized either. Plenty of these around or in private gyms. People still swear by them.

 

[qbkilla]

Lats primarily.

It makes my abs sore too and my lats to of course. Love the first iteration, plate loading which has became a cult classic. (Dorian used one.)

Arthur worked on the design of this machine for about 20 years, solving problems as they presented themselves.

Then one night when living in Rhodesia he had what he though to be a solution, called a long time employee in Africa named Graham Hall (who I have talked to a few times) and described a part he wanted to have built and delivered to him the next morning. And it was.

It failed so miserably that the solution became obvious.

Arthur’s arms and legs grew like weeds, other parts not so much, especially his lats, hence his focus on the pullover machine in my opinion.

I have a foto of Arnold using an early prototype of the pullover machine when he visited Arthur in Lake Helen, Fl. And he gave a wonderful written endorsement in Iron Man (so did Franco) which when I confronted him about the endorsement, he recanted. (Thank you Joe Weider . . . my opinion . . . who he was under contract with at the time.) There was one in the original Gold’s Gym in Venice but I never saw it being used. It was up in the front next to the right street window.

It was one of the first Nautilus machines to go into production. He called it ‘the upper body squat’. Arthur wrote an article about it Iron Man magazine.

Probably info than you wanted . . . sorry
for the ‘core’ dump.

No I find this very interesting. How are the machines today? I don't see many advocating or using them. Or assume they work best in a higher rep range say 20 or so?

 

[Ash Housewares]

The gym I currently train at has a Prime pullover machine. Like u described, good but not great. The old school Nautilus we're the best IMO.

My gym has this Nautilus pullover but it’s not quite the same as the older versions.

 

[alfresco]

No I find this very interesting. How are the machines today? I don't see many advocating or using them. Or assume they work best in a higher rep range say 20 or so?

I don’t know.

Oddly (?) enough I have never used any of the other Nautilus versions but the plate loading one and only a Cybex knock off pullover machine at my gym but it is worth than worthless, downright dangerous.

And to be perfectly transparent I do not get much out of machine pullovers so I am not the first in line to endorse them. Some swear by them, some don’t, some are ambivalent like me.

I do like a good pullover / press combination with an EZ curl bar.

 

[Muay Thai]

The gym I currently train at has a Prime pullover machine. Like u described, good but not great. The old school Nautilus we're the best IMO.

i think cybex or hammer strength makes one too, certain LA FITs have it. liked that machine a lot, I agree with @alfresco on the sore abs part too!

 

[qbkilla]

Interesting that the original is good but others suck, you would think they would copy it. The two in my gym are nautilus but are peg, you don't add plates. I'll take a pic tomorrow if I can 2 different okes both nautilus though.

 

[Muay Thai]

I have also read he was an amphetamine abuser?? if true this could have easily skewed some of his rationale

 

[alfresco]

Interesting that the original is good but others suck, you would think they would copy it. The two in my gym are nautilus but are peg, you don't add plates. I'll take a pic tomorrow if I can 2 different okes both nautilus though.

One would think so. Think patent infringement. But that is a hopeless endeavor, about impossible to enforce so he never really bothered with the knockoffs. The gym floors would look entirely different had he not come along when he did.

I think design changes (Nautilus) were driven more by convenience than results, i.e., bodybuilding, which was Arthur’s first ‘love’.

Bill Pearl got his ass reamed out by Arthur when he put a selectorized weight stack on the Nautilus combo bi / tri machine Arthur gave him, which was plate loaded, and by doing so drastically changed the strength curve. Eventually it was selectorized by Arthur but with appropriate design changes.

FYI . . . at one point in time before Nautilus took off (was in its infancy and was called Arthur Jones Productions) he offered everything to Bill Pearl, free of charge, no strings attached, and Bill turned it down

As time marched on Arthur and got complicated he longed for the good ol’ days when life was simpler and he could get back to making some good strength training machines. Sad that never happened.

Could go on and on but don’t want to bore everybody by me going off on various tangents.

 

[alfresco]

I have also read he was an amphetamine abuser?? if true this could have easily skewed some of his rationale

Heard that too but can’t confirm but word has it he was certified ‘crazy’ (you define) and was fired for being just plain lazy, not my words, Arthur’s.

 

[qbkilla]

One would think so. Think patent infringement. But that is a hopeless endeavor, about impossible to enforce so he never really bothered with the knockoffs. The gym floors would look entirely different had he not come along when he did.

I think design changes (Nautilus) were driven more by convenience than results, i.e., bodybuilding, which was Arthur’s first ‘love’.

Bill Pearl got his ass reamed out by Arthur when he put a selectorized weight stack on the Nautilus combo bi / tri machine Arthur gave him, which was plate loaded, and by doing so drastically changed the strength curve. Eventually it was selectorized by Arthur but with appropriate design changes.

FYI . . . at one point in time before Nautilus took off (was in its infancy and was called Arthur Jones Productions) he offered everything to Bill Pearl, free of charge, no strings attached, and Bill turned it down

As time marched on Arthur and got complicated he longed for the good ol’ days when life was simpler and he could get back to making some good strength training machines. Sad that never happened.

Could go on and on but don’t want to bore everybody by me going off on various tangents.

Do you think in general move the pin machines are inferior to plate loaded? Or just that particular one.

Thinking of hamstring curls, preacher curls, horizontal pulling machine's for back, etc

 

[Mufasa123]

I have also read he was an amphetamine abuser?? if true this could have easily skewed some of his rationale

He's spoken about it. He originally used these to fuel intense workouts as well as an intensely productive life working toward his goals. Psychosis and issues can develop in the best of us and amphetamine use really helps bring that on with enough time. Below goes into as much depth as I've seen.

MIKE MENTZER - The Untold Story

It was early May of 2001, when out of the blue I received a phone call in FLEX’s LA office from Mike Mentzer. We hadn’t spoken for over five years.....

www.musculardevelopment.com

 

[lookslikesausage]

One of the very few last hardcore gyms still around where I live, they have an old Nautilus Pullover machine, except it was designed for women. Man this thing feels good, almost perfect. Only complaint from me, and I'm not exceptional, is that I can get around 30 reps with the whole stack. I used to own one of the newer Nautilus models from the late 90's or early 2000's. Got it super cheap. This version had a kevlar belt instead of the chain drive (less friction, some like it and some don't). I ended up trading that Nautilus Pullover for a Cybex Pullover which I still have. My complaint with the model I owned was the elbow pads were too wide. It would be a wonderful feature for these machine to have adjustable elbow pads and not just the width either. I know that Polaris who made good stuff in the 80's and is sadly no longer around made a selectorized Pullover with adjustable elbow pads. The more the elbows are bent, the more triceps engagement (particularly stretch) you will get in addition to Lat recruitment. I like to do them underhanded and often with my elbows not actually on the pads (feel it more in the lats this way). I get a great stretch in my lats with Pullovers when I can get the elbow angle correct. I personally love Pullover machines and wish more gyms had them.

 

[alfresco]

Do you think in general move the pin machines are inferior to plate loaded? Or just that particular one.

Thinking of hamstring curls, preacher curls, horizontal pulling machine's for back, etc

Pin or plate?

Personally, and I am far from an expert (but did 10 years worth of tool design), I think it does not matter if it is properly designed.

With the pullover machine and the bicep / triceps machine they were first iteration’s and plate loading. Designs evolve like everything else due to convenience, ease of use, time factors, safety, cost, etc.

Gary Jones, Arthur’s son, designed all (?) the Hammer Strength machines as plate loading and that went over pretty well I would say and made him millions.

 

[alfresco]

He's spoken about it. He originally used these to fuel intense workouts as well as an intensely productive life working toward his goals. Psychosis and issues can develop in the best of us and amphetamine use really helps bring that on with enough time. Below goes into as much depth as I've seen.

MIKE MENTZER - The Untold Story

It was early May of 2001, when out of the blue I received a phone call in FLEX’s LA office from Mike Mentzer. We hadn’t spoken for over five years.....

www.musculardevelopment.com

Never read that article before. Thanks for that if true.

I have spoken with Mike on the phone twice post competition and Nautilus days and the subject was never mentioned. He did have his share of wacky ideas about training frequency (he went off the deep end) and drinking your own urine, etc. so I guess he is capable of rationalizing about anything