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MICHAEL GUNDILL THEORY

as stated, there is more that a thousand different ways to hypertrophy...what gundill and duchaine describe at one point is that heavy tension workouts were much to traumatic to the cells and tissue. they claim the negatives outweight the positives when using heavy tension and going to failure (cns drain ect) what they were proposing was higher volume and short rest periods...they wanted a burn and using heavy weights could not accomplish what they wanted (ie too heavy a weight means longer rest periods, lower reps and longer recup time between workouts) they wanted stimulous and then that muscle needs to be hit again. they never wanted light weights..a weight that could be managed in the 12- 15 range but, stopping a rep or two before muscular failure.. many guys today are doing this "blood volume" type workouts (titus, kamali, dillett, ect). the basic tenent was that you get as much done in a short time period again, it comes down to workload not weight according to gundill and duchaine..many will disagree but, look at how many of the pros train "lazy" and somehow get away with it..maybe it is genetics...maybe they stumbled on to something... gundill just belives that the lack of gains in the roid users is from them not adjusting their training to their new enviroment. one quote he says is "one should use extensive workouts not intensive workouts" meaning.."if you use intensive workouts you can not perfrom many sets..but, extensive means maximum reps with sub maximal weight..again and again"
 
LATS said:
as stated, there is more that a thousand different ways to hypertrophy...what gundill and duchaine describe at one point is that heavy tension workouts were much to traumatic to the cells and tissue. they claim the negatives outweight the positives when using heavy tension and going to failure (cns drain ect) what they were proposing was higher volume and short rest periods...they wanted a burn and using heavy weights could not accomplish what they wanted (ie too heavy a weight means longer rest periods, lower reps and longer recup time between workouts) they wanted stimulous and then that muscle needs to be hit again. they never wanted light weights..a weight that could be managed in the 12- 15 range but, stopping a rep or two before muscular failure.. many guys today are doing this "blood volume" type workouts (titus, kamali, dillett, ect). the basic tenent was that you get as much done in a short time period again, it comes down to workload not weight according to gundill and duchaine..many will disagree but, look at how many of the pros train "lazy" and somehow get away with it..maybe it is genetics...maybe they stumbled on to something... gundill just belives that the lack of gains in the roid users is from them not adjusting their training to their new enviroment. one quote he says is "one should use extensive workouts not intensive workouts" meaning.."if you use intensive workouts you can not perfrom many sets..but, extensive means maximum reps with sub maximal weight..again and again"

and again that works perhaps, but name someone who had more sheer dense muscle than Dorian who ONLY trained HIT

also Ronnie uses devastatingly heavy weights as well and trains almost like a powerlifter as per his background
 
HIT

I spent some time in 1987 with Nautilus before they were sold. They tried every version of HIT training you can imagine, and never got much in the way of results for bodybuilding. They then used this "Superslow" idea on a bunch of osteoporosis patients - most of whom were senior citizens - got some results in a group of people who'd never trained, and then tried it on bodybuilders with no results. At least one very promising pro almost had his career destroyed trying El Darden's training ideas. Not one pro who tried Jones' workouts stayed with them.

I know, what about the famous "Colorado Experiment?" Casey Viiator had been working for 2 years on an offshore oil-drilling rig and not training at all. He'd dropped from around 220, to about 160, then got injured, and was hospitalized, reducing his weight further. Jones then took him back to training, loaded him up with all the gear and food he could stuff into him, and lo and behold, Casey regained muscle he'd ALREADY HAD ONCE. This version is, of corse, not the one written in the HIT lore!

Along comes Mike Mentzer (whom I also knew). He takes this whole "HIT" notion to its logical, yet ridiculous conclusion, by having people train 2 sets every 2 weeks! Peolpe weren't getting gains at all, and of course not - they were DE-conditioning!

In reality, Dorian used something like Mike's 1970's version of HIT. This involved something like 3 exercises, 2 sets each, for chest, and maybe 12 total sets for back, while doing similar numbers of sets for other bodyparts. These numbers do NOT include warm-up 3 or more sets. Beginning to sound familiar? This is also NOT how he built his physique in the first place.

Someone in an earlier post above mentioned CNS exhaustion. This is precisely what you'll get, as well as adrenal exhaustion, with a steady diet of HIT. Since muscle fibres will recover in days, but CNS and endocrine recovery takes as much as weeks in some cases, you'll never be "in sync" on your recovery. Toward the end of his life, even Mike Mentzer was beginning to concede that "training to failure" may not be necessay for gains, but rather balancing training with recovery. His comment to me, off the record of course, was "It's all about recovery." This was not the stance he took in public, though. He had too much invested in all the years he'd promoted HIT to change anything.

Most HIT proponents blame the fact that they are "not training HARD enough" on their lack of gains, so they try to find ways to increase the "intensity." The fact is that few of the people who originated HIT had any understanding of basic physiology, were openly distainful of medical science and research, and created theories which remain unproven.

If I sound somewhat bitter, it's because of my personal experience, as well as that of hundreds (yes, hundreds!) of bodybuilders I've talked to who've been frustrated by a lack of progress while trying to use a flawed methodology. What's even worse is that they blame themselves as though it's some character flaw on their part which keeps them form training "hard enough." When I returned some years back to more conventional training, my progress resumed, and I gained back all of what was lost in the "HIT years."

Sorry for the rant, and thanks for your patience!
 
Dorian did 3-6 working sets for each bodypart as a general rule--not 12

and the only one who ever bested him in training poundgaes for back was MOI :)

he used to frequent a gym i trained at
 
Damn

instynct999 said:
Dorian did 3-6 working sets for each bodypart as a general rule--not 12

and the only one who ever bested him in training poundgaes for back was MOI :)

he used to frequent a gym i trained at

You must be a pretty strong dude instynct, wow. I saw him in blood and guts doing bent over rows, DAMN. Was it every exercise you bested him in on back?
 
to further the point and i bullshit you not i was 100% clean back then (never used any super-supps)

i was doing bent rows with 500 for 4-6 (all the way up and down but there was some body movement of course but nothing ridiculous)

and pulldowns i was doing about 400 for 4-6--again some body movement but all they way to the chest and full extension of the arms at the top

back and legs were by far my strongest BPs

leg extensions i was doing 500 for 12 and would squat ass to grass 500 for 6-8 with only a 4 inch belt

ah, those were the days

i was about 260 @ 12-13% at the time (i'm 5' 6 3/4")

right now i no longer can do those psycho weights as i have to take care not to blow out anything--that is the down of HIT--i have smallish joints and the injury potential , especially when you are a psycho do or die trainer is high

my goal though now is to get to about 250 at 4-5%BF by year's end to be ready for Next year's USAs
 
Christ

You are a freak man!
 
yeah , but although i'd like to think not you'd proabably hand me my ass in a mano a mano situation ,LOL
 
DAD IS 100% RIGHT ABOUT MUSCLE RECOVERY. i did not have time to post it in my above post but, i am glad he brought it up...what he said about muscle recovers in days is true..but, if you trained with pre exhaust, triple drops, negatives ect in the prvious session, your endro system, immune system, glands ect are not ready...if they are not ready and you have done enough damage to make the recovery of these systems take weeks...then good luck and welcome to no gains..haney said many times to stimulate...do not destroy..
 
LATS said:
DAD IS 100% RIGHT ABOUT MUSCLE RECOVERY. i did not have time to post it in my above post but, i am glad he brought it up...what he said about muscle recovers in days is true..but, if you trained with pre exhaust, triple drops, negatives ect in the prvious session, your endro system, immune system, glands ect are not ready...if they are not ready and you have done enough damage to make the recovery of these systems take weeks...then good luck and welcome to no gains..haney said many times to stimulate...do not destroy..

actually what really burns out is the nervous system (CNS)
 
i wanted add something that instynct has said..not many people gear their training for their body type..i personally always trained in the 4-6 rep range..sometimes a bit higher if i miscalculated my weight that day..even though my form was always good and controlled i suffered many injuries..(complete quad rupture, rotator cuff tears, pec tear, very screwed up shoulders in general ect..) i finally had to realize that even after all these years my strength was not great..weighing 260 pounds at 5'8 1/2 i would think i would be stronger..some of my lifts are very good but, they are odd lifts..i can chin like a mutha and i will go one on one with anyone in dips..but, still not near as strong as i would like to be..anytime i added weight to any exercise it was bound to be a disaster...injuries would come along..it was just a matter of time..i am now starting to do more "pumping" workouts but, with still as much weight as i can but, with higher reps..i am only in my late 30's and i know any more years of heavy low rep workouts are going to but a end to my competitive ambitions..i miss the heavy stuff already but, you gotta listen to the body..it will only ask nicely for a while.. :D
 
LATS

LATS makes a good point about matching training to your body - and your body won't ALWAYS remain the same.

An old-fashioned but still widely used technique I use nearly all the time at the moment (to attain the best of both worlds) is pyramid sets. Simple stuff, works great for me (coming back from a sharp and heavy illness, and going well).

I also agree that going to or beyond failure is often overdone and some people put all their focus on this end part of the set with little regard for mind-muscle connection throughout the set or for proper technique.

I often remind some of the people I talk to that powerlifters still exist (amongst all this BS these days) - that is, they train low reps, low sets, rarely to or beyond failure, and they will lift most bbuilders under the table and have size gains to match (not ripped sure, but that isn't their goal). If it works for them, and other sportsman like rowers, then why do we have to do 33 beyond failure techniques per set?

I think I lost a lot of potential gains from time to time by training too hard and not smart enough. IronMike
 
instynct999 said:


yes

action/reaction grasshopper

again though one of many viable methods

look at Dorian at 300# and 5%BF and tell me HIT is not a formula for brutal musclularity
lol , yes , action reaction :D ha ha h a
 
raybravo said:

lol , yes , action reaction :D ha ha h a

yeah, figure perfect opportunity to quote from the master

in that relationship i am the grasshopper--finally found a sensei worthy , he,he
 
instynct999 said:


yeah, figure perfect opportunity to quote from the master

in that relationship i am the grasshopper--finally found a sensei worthy , he,he
really, although the fella is wayy off at certain places , he's quite good when talking of drug synnergy etc , i got hold of his next book building the perfect beast and its a very good one i felt .
 
instynct999 said:
to further the point and i bullshit you not i was 100% clean back then (never used any super-supps)

i was doing bent rows with 500 for 4-6 (all the way up and down but there was some body movement of course but nothing ridiculous)

and pulldowns i was doing about 400 for 4-6--again some body movement but all they way to the chest and full extension of the arms at the top

back and legs were by far my strongest BPs

leg extensions i was doing 500 for 12 and would squat ass to grass 500 for 6-8 with only a 4 inch belt

ah, those were the days

i was about 260 @ 12-13% at the time (i'm 5' 6 3/4")

right now i no longer can do those psycho weights as i have to take care not to blow out anything--that is the down of HIT--i have smallish joints and the injury potential , especially when you are a psycho do or die trainer is high

my goal though now is to get to about 250 at 4-5%BF by year's end to be ready for Next year's USAs
bro 250 at your height is insane good luck i don't doubt you one bit, I can only dream of reaching that kind of weight, my goal is to compete at 210 @ 5ft5
 
shit where;s my copy :)

seriously if you had a clue of the extent and depth of his understanding your jaw would drop--unlesss you one on one with him you just get an inkling of the inner workings

we have had some real intensive discussion and i am left floored and that is not easy to do

not sure where you think he is off, there may be a small point ofrtwo we differ, but by and large he is dead on target
 
instynct999 said:
shit where;s my copy :)

seriously if you had a clue of the extent and depth of his understanding your jaw would drop--unlesss you one on one with him you just get an inkling of the inner workings

we have had some real intensive discussion and i am left floored and that is not easy to do

not sure where you think he is off, there may be a small point ofrtwo we differ, but by and large he is dead on target
yeah , he's off on his thinking on winny being progesterone antagonist , drol having a progesterone structure and things like that and he uses these ideas to make them work in synnergy during cycles , but other that that, ure right , he knows his shit , u see his website now , he's charging like 750 per month or something ? wtf ?
 
Matching body and workout

One of the ideas Jones came up with that I think does have some use is a test for determining what type of rep structure might work best for a given muscle on an individual. It went like this:

You establish your 1 rep max on some sigle joint exercize for a muscle. For example, pec deck for pecs, or leg ext for quads.
Then take 80% of that weight and perform a set to failure.
Some people might get 12 or more reps at 80%, and others might get 4 reps. There will be rep ranges between these extremes.

Jones thought those at the low end of the range would do better with low-rep workouts, while those with high rep test results should train higher rep sets.

I suspect that what this demonstrated, in part, was fibre distribution within a given muscle. The drawback is that this test isn't helpful for compound moves like benches or squats.
 
Instynct, have you experimented with Rea's version of Blitz cycles? Has your opinion changed on whether it is more favorable to be on yr round, or to keep producing quality growth in spurts? Thanks.
 

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