MIKE ARNOLD, If you are in here please answer this question

[G.I.Bro]

Good points. I actually asked on the PHF forum. Pat Arnold actually said a false positive high test reading was possible. Who knows.

Pat would def be an authority! His response is about as good as it gets.

 

[ALLEX]

I hope you are right.............

If you just need your test to be low, maybe try a drug which molecule is very different from test, maybe winny or halo.

 

[cauthen96]

Lipids were up a tad.. nothing crazy.. and yes 50mg every day up to blood draw.. and the estro is a BITCH took me 2.5mg letro ED to keep it in check..

 

[G.I.Bro]

If you just need your test to be low, maybe try a drug which molecule is very different from test, maybe winny or halo.

Ironically, Trest is, its closer to Nandrolone. It's a 19-nor derived compound. Winny, for example, is DHT derived. On paper, Trest should be MORE effective at lowering serum test than Winstrol.

Trest/MENT

Nandrolone

Testosterone

Winstrol

Lipids were up a tad.. nothing crazy.. and yes 50mg every day up to blood draw.. and the estro is a BITCH took me 2.5mg letro ED to keep it in check..

When I played with Oral MENT I had a gyno flare up that was hard to stamp out. I ended up just stopping the MENT.

 

[KUVinny]

That is a good question and tbh I don't remember but it's very possible. Since I am due for one today and Friday I will wait until after the test on Friday to take my Friday dose.

 

[totalrecomp]

31, was on trest oral for about two weeks leading up to first test. Total test came back 153, I stopped the oral one day out due to the insanely short half life. Hopped back on and followed the same protocol and a couple of weeks later total test for in the 80's.

Went on to research dienolone and trest, followed by DTA and trest for a couple of months straight. Crit was 49.5. Had much higher crit on TRT 200 cyp in the past.

 

[JAP426]

well.....

Lipids were up a tad.. nothing crazy.. and yes 50mg every day up to blood draw.. and the estro is a BITCH took me 2.5mg letro ED to keep it in check..

2.5 mgs of Letro everyday could have caused the lipid problems. How was your hemoglobin/hematocrit?

 

[Mike Arnold]

My initial response would be to say "no", trest will not cause you to test high for testosterone.

This is because when doctors perform testosterone blood draws, they are specifically testing for testosterone levels--not trenbolone levels, nandrolone, levels, trestolone levels, etc.

I have seen tons of guys with testosterone levels at very close to zero or in a clinically deficient range when using massive dosages of AAS (no exo testosterone was used).

Keep in mind that just because someone may still have a testosterone level of 200 something when using trest alone, it does not mean that the trest is causing the reading. There are a variety of factors one must take into consideration as to why testosterone is still showing up on bloodwork.

For one, not everyone responds equally in terms of suppression when using exogenous AAS. Some guys' testosterone levels will reach near zero with very low doses of exo AAS, while other guys will maintain some degree of test production--although still typically in the deficient range--when using fairly high dosages of exo AAS.

I have seen some guys test in the upper 200's after many months of high dose AAS use with no exo testosterone in the picture. I seen other who are down to nearly nothing after 6 weeks of TRT. Some people are just much more resistant to suppression than others. About 10 years ago I used to speak with a certain doctor regularly, who used to run a TRT clinic, but has since passed as a result of cardiovascular complications. He had used AAS all throughout the late 70's and 80's at fairly high dosages. During this time, he never employed PCT, although he did cycle his AAS, as most guys did back then. Years after he stopped using AAS, at 55+ years of age and without any outside assistance, he was still clocking in at a whopping 1,200 ng/dl, which he said was just slightly below his original, pre-AAS reading from his mid-20's. Talk about resiliency! He also explained to me that even when he was on AAS, he never dropped into a clinically deficient range (although it still fell quite a bit from his normal level) and recovered just fine without PCT. He acknowledged that this was not normal--but neither were the baseball size testicles he claimed to have.

We also need to consider things such as steroid type, total dose, and duration of use, all of which can affect testosterone production. These tings, along with a variance in personal response, are the reasons we see some people testing at near zero after mild cycles and others still maintaining a relatively moderate degree of test production with heavier cycles. Based on my observation, most guys will experience severe suppression with heavier cycles..and many with even mild cycles, but not everyone's T production is going to be completely shut-off.

Still, Pat Arnold is a very smart man and claims to know something about this subject that I don't. If Pat said a high false positve test result was possible, then he may very well be correct, but in this case, trestolone would need to be acting differently than traditional AAS in order to cause this effect, as there have been literally 1,000's of people (dozens that I have personally witnessed) use non-testosterone based AAS without any increase in T levels. In fact, I have yet to personally see someone use non-test based AAS and have their T levels come back elevated, outside of those instances I described earlier, which were due to variances in the aformentioned factors and even then, no one was testing above the high 200's.

It would have been nice if Pat would have elaborated on the mechanism by which trestolone can cause this effect...because from what I have seen posted here, all he said was that it is "possible".

So, sorry I am unable to provide a confident answer, a Pat's response caused me to doubt my initial thoughts on the matter. Maybe you might want to ask Pat "how" trestolone can cause this and post the explanation here for all of us, as this isn't something I have looked into previously?

 

[JAP426]

You Da Man Mike Arnold.........

Mr. Arnold, thanks alot for your response. I know myself and alot of others here really value your opinion. I will see if I can get something more out of Patrick Arnold on his forum. I may have misunderstood one part of your post when you state "non-testosterone based AAS". If we were speaking strictly of just Trestolone Ace/Deca then let me ask you this? Have you personally ever witnessed any bloodwork when one is using "trest only"? And if so, did you see test suppression or test increase? Also do you think that trestolone would be easier on hemoglobin/hematocrit levels than test is? I understand if you don't have an answer for these questions but I am going to throw them out there while I have you here Thanks again.

My initial response would be to say "no", trest will not cause you to test high for testosterone.

This is because when doctors perform testosterone blood draws, they are specifically testing for testosterone levels--not trenbolone levels, nandrolone, levels, trestolone levels, etc.

I have seen tons of guys with testosterone levels at very close to zero or in a clinically deficient range when using massive dosages of AAS (no exo testosterone was used).

Keep in mind that just because someone may still have a testosterone level of 200 something when using trest alone, it does not mean that the trest is causing the reading. There are a variety of factors one must take into consideration as to why testosterone is still showing up on bloodwork.

For one, not everyone responds equally in terms of suppression when using exogenous AAS. Some guys' testosterone levels will reach near zero with very low doses of exo AAS, while other guys will maintain some degree of test production--although still typically in the deficient range--when using fairly high dosages of exo AAS.

I have seen some guys test in the upper 200's after many months of high dose AAS use with no exo testosterone in the picture. I seen other who are down to nearly nothing after 6 weeks of TRT. Some people are just much more resistant to suppression than others. About 10 years ago I used to speak with a certain doctor regularly, who used to run a TRT clinic, but has since passed as a result of cardiovascular complications. He had used AAS all throughout the late 70's and 80's at fairly high dosages. During this time, he never employed PCT, although he did cycle his AAS, as most guys did back then. Years after he stopped using AAS, at 55+ years of age and without any outside assistance, he was still clocking in at a whopping 1,200 ng/dl, which he said was just slightly below his original, pre-AAS reading from his mid-20's. Talk about resiliency! He also explained to me that even when he was on AAS, he never dropped into a clinically deficient range (although it still fell quite a bit from his normal level) and recovered just fine without PCT. He acknowledged that this was not normal--but neither were the baseball size testicles he claimed to have.

We also need to consider things such as steroid type, total dose, and duration of use, all of which can affect testosterone production. These tings, along with a variance in personal response, are the reasons we see some people testing at near zero after mild cycles and others still maintaining a relatively moderate degree of test production with heavier cycles. Based on my observation, most guys will experience severe suppression with heavier cycles..and many with even mild cycles, but not everyone's T production is going to be completely shut-off.

Still, Pat Arnold is a very smart man and claims to know something about this subject that I don't. If Pat said a high false positve test result was possible, then he may very well be correct, but in this case, trestolone would need to be acting differently than traditional AAS in order to cause this effect, as there have been literally 1,000's of people (dozens that I have personally witnessed) use non-testosterone based AAS without any increase in T levels. In fact, I have yet to personally see someone use non-test based AAS and have their T levels come back elevated, outside of those instances I described earlier, which were due to variances in the aformentioned factors and even then, no one was testing above the high 200's.

It would have been nice if Pat would have elaborated on the mechanism by which trestolone can cause this effect...because from what I have seen posted here, all he said was that it is "possible".

So, sorry I am unable to provide a confident answer, a Pat's response caused me to doubt my initial thoughts on the matter. Maybe you might want to ask Pat "how" trestolone can cause this and post the explanation here for all of us, as this isn't something I have looked into previously?

 

[Scorch]

I read every one of mikes post on musculardevelopment and this forum (regarding AAS) atleast twice. Mike, jesus man you are a freaking book of knowledge.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Mr. Arnold, thanks alot for your response. I know myself and alot of others here really value your opinion. I will see if I can get something more out of Patrick Arnold on his forum. I may have misunderstood one part of your post when you state "non-testosterone based AAS". If we were speaking strictly of just Trestolone Ace/Deca then let me ask you this? Have you personally ever witnessed any bloodwork when one is using "trest only"? And if so, did you see test suppression or test increase? Also do you think that trestolone would be easier on hemoglobin/hematocrit levels than test is? I understand if you don't have an answer for these questions but I am going to throw them out there while I have you here Thanks again.

1.) When I said "non-testosterone based AAS", I was referring solely to testosterone and its various esters.

2.) I have never seen trest only lab work results.

3.) Easier on hematocrit-hemoglobin? I don't know....and I don't know of anyone at this point who has personally evaluated trest's effect on those markers relative to testosterone. As you know, most people use both trestolone and testosterone in combination with other AAS, negating any lab work done under such circumctances. In order to come to any sort of reliable conclusion, we would need to see a number of people recieve blood work with each drug under identical circumstances--preferably conducted by medical researchers, in order to ensure proper study control.

Besides, even if we had access to bloodwork results from a few forum members under such circumstances (I don't know anyone who is able to furnish such bloodwork), it still wouldn't be reliable, as variances in personal response play a large role in what one's health markers look like when using AAS. That's why some guys end up with hematocrit in the low-mid 50's when using nothing but TRT...and others remain below 50 when running mega-cycles.

In my opinion, unless we had access to a preponderance of anecdotal evidence all pointing in the same direction (which to my knowledge doesn't yet exist due to trest's short time on the scene), then we can't really say for sure--we can only speculate based on the relatively small amount of information we do have.

First, consider the percentage of AAS users who actually check those health markers. Of them, consider how many have used trest alone. Of them, how many do you think have gotten bloodowork after solo runs of both trest & test when using the same exact dosage and for the same exact period of time? Of them, how many do you think began there experiments from baseline, which means these health markers had completely returned to normal before beginning either cycle? Of course, we would also need to take into consideration any other variables which could potentially affect these health markers, as well.

Just because trest has been shown to be many times as myotropic and androgenic as testoterone in some studies does not necessary mean it will affect other bodily systems/health markers with the same degree of potency.

This is a good question, but one I cannot answer at this time. Even if a few members cam forward today and claimed that one or the other provided a more pronounced effect in these areas, it would mean very little to me, as there would almost certainly be several variables unaccounted for which could potentially affect their readings. I suppose we will get an answer to this question eventually, but who knows. Even among our current roster of AAS, many of which have been in use for decades, we are still unable able to rank them all according to their hematocrit-hemoglobin elevating potency.

 

[rebato]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JAP426]

Thanks again for your response Mr. Arnold. Much respect.

1.) When I said "non-testosterone based AAS", I was referring solely to testosterone and its various esters.

2.) I have never seen trest only lab work results.

3.) Easier on hematocrit-hemoglobin? I don't know....and I don't know of anyone at this point who has personally evaluated trest's effect on those markers relative to testosterone. As you know, most people use both trestolone and testosterone in combination with other AAS, negating any lab work done under such circumctances. In order to come to any sort of reliable conclusion, we would need to see a number of people recieve blood work with each drug under identical circumstances--preferably conducted by medical researchers, in order to ensure proper study control.

Besides, even if we had access to bloodwork results from a few forum members under such circumstances (I don't know anyone who is able to furnish such bloodwork), it still wouldn't be reliable, as variances in personal response play a large role in what one's health markers look like when using AAS. That's why some guys end up with hematocrit in the low-mid 50's when using nothing but TRT...and others remain below 50 when running mega-cycles.

In my opinion, unless we had access to a preponderance of anecdotal evidence all pointing in the same direction (which to my knowledge doesn't yet exist due to trest's short time on the scene), then we can't really say for sure--we can only speculate based on the relatively small amount of information we do have.

First, consider the percentage of AAS users who actually check those health markers. Of them, consider how many have used trest alone. Of them, how many do you think have gotten bloodowork after solo runs of both trest & test when using the same exact dosage and for the same exact period of time? Of them, how many do you think began there experiments from baseline, which means these health markers had completely returned to normal before beginning either cycle? Of course, we would also need to take into consideration any other variables which could potentially affect these health markers, as well.

Just because trest has been shown to be many times as myotropic and androgenic as testoterone in some studies does not necessary mean it will affect other bodily systems/health markers with the same degree of potency.

This is a good question, but one I cannot answer at this time. Even if a few members cam forward today and claimed that one or the other provided a more pronounced effect in these areas, it would mean very little to me, as there would almost certainly be several variables unaccounted for which could potentially affect their readings. I suppose we will get an answer to this question eventually, but who knows. Even among our current roster of AAS, many of which have been in use for decades, we are still unable able to rank them all according to their hematocrit-hemoglobin elevating potency.