Minimum gear to hold all gains?

[alfresco]

Is no scient behind all this theories, usually the problem not gaining size is by not training hard and more frequent and not enough quality food, I am talking about real food no powders.

Regarding frequency, I think it is more a matter of age; older requires more frequency but less duration. All else I am on board with. Good post.

 

[cal]

over the years i have heard the following calculations that many mention or have them selves tried

TRT is .5mg per lb of bodyweight usually
Sports/Athletic TRT 1mg per lb of body weight

Elite powerlifters were using total gear in mg that equaled their 3 lift total (mentioned by Dave Tate many times)
IFBB pros were using 10 x their bodyweight in total mg .

again this is roughly of course some use more and less.

Seems a litte for plers ...

 

[beast405]

Ehhh. I don’t run dosages like I use to. But I hold decent size on cruises when I come down to 200mg test cyp ew. I can maintain 230lbs under 6ft with abs. Of course I get softer on that dose but the size is there.

 

[Tomgrass]

Ehhh. I don’t run dosages like I use to. But I hold decent size on cruises when I come down to 200mg test cyp ew. I can maintain 230lbs under 6ft with abs. Of course I get softer on that dose but the size is there.

So no- you are not maitaining - you are gaining bodyfat slowly loosing muscles- this is reason why you are getting softer.

 

[luki7788]

So no- you are not maitaining - you are gaining bodyfat slowly loosing muscles- this is reason why you are getting softer.

exactly - there is no such thing as "maintenance" just because you have the same weight doesn't mean you have the same number of muscles

 

[Mufasa123]

At 200mg per week I put on fat and lose offsetting muscle. Late 40s a bit over 6'2" and this is from 230-275lbs doesn't matter. I train with focus on compound lifts, coached teams and dabbled in S&C my whole life so I'd like to think I know how to train. Eat the same, doesn't matter. I need more not for "the look" but to maintain muscle mass or even come close (which is fine during a cruise, no miracle needed). Individual genetics plays a role here and that includes response to test, anabolic or hgh.

I'm trying to find the magic cruise that just holds me steady and doesn't touch bloods. Test and deca move nothing for me but I'd like something a tad drier. Primo hits my lipids solidly as I recently found (OK for blast but not ideal for a cruise for me). Maybe equipoise.

 

[Reload]

I think it varies wildly between individuals.

 

[cal]

Far too many variables, ...I do think it can be less than what it took to build it but you built your mass on 3g of strong androgens taking 250 as an hrt isnt gonna cut it and you will lose alot of muscle and get softer and fatter. If say only taking 600 test and 25 mg then I do believe one can hold onto most with just an HRT ish level.

 

[Tomgrass]

At 200mg per week I put on fat and lose offsetting muscle. Late 40s a bit over 6'2" and this is from 230-275lbs doesn't matter. I train with focus on compound lifts, coached teams and dabbled in S&C my whole life so I'd like to think I know how to train. Eat the same, doesn't matter. I need more not for "the look" but to maintain muscle mass or even come close (which is fine during a cruise, no miracle needed). Individual genetics plays a role here and that includes response to test, anabolic or hgh.

I'm trying to find the magic cruise that just holds me steady and doesn't touch bloods. Test and deca move nothing for me but I'd like something a tad drier. Primo hits my lipids solidly as I recently found (OK for blast but not ideal for a cruise for me). Maybe equipoise.

Did you try test prop and masteron?

 

[Flex500]

exactly - there is no such thing as "maintenance" just because you have the same weight doesn't mean you have the same number of muscles

This is a great point and we probably need to define what "maintenance" means. If we mean 100% maintenance, that would likely only be achievable on the same amount of drugs you are currently on...unless someone is taking way too many drugs OR that person wasn't so tight with diet and training but got serious when dropping the dose (likely due to fear of losing muscle or the look some people put a little more effort in on a lower dose).

 

[luki7788]

This is a great point and we probably need to define what "maintenance" means. If we mean 100% maintenance, that would likely only be achievable on the same amount of drugs you are currently on...unless someone is taking way too many drugs OR that person wasn't so tight with diet and training but got serious when dropping the dose (likely due to fear of losing muscle or the look some people put a little more effort in on a lower dose).

exactly - I think the term "maintenance" is misunderstood

 

[Flex500]

At 200mg per week I put on fat and lose offsetting muscle. Late 40s a bit over 6'2" and this is from 230-275lbs doesn't matter. I train with focus on compound lifts, coached teams and dabbled in S&C my whole life so I'd like to think I know how to train. Eat the same, doesn't matter. I need more not for "the look" but to maintain muscle mass or even come close (which is fine during a cruise, no miracle needed). Individual genetics plays a role here and that includes response to test, anabolic or hgh.

I'm trying to find the magic cruise that just holds me steady and doesn't touch bloods. Test and deca move nothing for me but I'd like something a tad drier. Primo hits my lipids solidly as I recently found (OK for blast but not ideal for a cruise for me). Maybe equipoise.

It would be interesting to see what your test levels are. On pharma test @ 200mgs a week I'm 1200-1600 TT. Add in a little HGH with hard training and dieting and most people can keep a metric ton of muscle and "the look" with test levels that high.

It's the minority but we do see folks on test where their test levels just don't go that high up. My point is are incredibly developed and 200mgs of test has your TT at like 800 or so?

Just a thought as I had a friend in that situation. He ended up doing 100 test / 100 deca and sprinkled in some anavar or anadrol (in fairly modest doses) throughout the week and it seemed to work well to maintain. Pretty small doses though as he was looking to improve health markers.

I'm not really big on adding orals but if I'm careful anavar doesn't do much to my bloods so maybe a small dose could help?

 

[Mufasa123]

It would be interesting to see what your test levels are. On pharma test @ 200mgs a week I'm 1200-1600 TT. Add in a little HGH with hard training and dieting and most people can keep a metric ton of muscle and "the look" with test levels that high.

It's the minority but we do see folks on test where their test levels just don't go that high up. My point is are incredibly developed and 200mgs of test has your TT at like 800 or so?

Just a thought as I had a friend in that situation. He ended up doing 100 test / 100 deca and sprinkled in some anavar or anadrol (in fairly modest doses) throughout the week and it seemed to work well to maintain. Pretty small doses though as he was looking to improve health markers.

I'm not really big on adding orals but if I'm careful anavar doesn't do much to my bloods so maybe a small dose could help?

200mg 1x per week is 1100-1000 serum test peak so a tad lower at trough. If I split to 2x I'd guess lower peak and higher trough. I cruise on cyp or enanthate.

When I started HRT I was prescribed 200 cyp and 20p deca every week. Bloods not effected at all over 2 years (I've run cyp and deca at 750/600 and similar) and held better but I'd like to find something dry and just a little more benign than a 19 nor or at least a periodic alternative. Might not be possible as primo and mast both hit my lipids. At end of day it's all a trade off but trying trying to find best return/risk asymmetry. Primo is best I've found so far. Orals are in the wrong direction though I'll use them periodically on blasts though not regularly.

 

[Mufasa123]

Did you try test prop and masteron?

Mast hits lipids too. Above post gives more detail but trying to find "the perfect" so might not exist. Mast other than helping out free test does little for me. Feels though and complimentary use as a 3rd compound it's great though.

 

[Tomgrass]

Mast hits lipids too. Above post gives more detail but trying to find "the perfect" so might not exist. Mast other than helping out free test does little for me. Feels though and complimentary use as a 3rd compound it's great though.

Ostarine? Or maybe slightly more test with proviron?

 

[Mufasa123]

Ostarine? Or maybe slightly more test with proviron?

I figure provision would be similar to mast but I might try. More test and prov to dry might be solid. No idea on Ostarine or sarms, never ran any. I do run HGH now and started last fall. 2ius mostly, 3iu now and will work to 4ius over another month or so.

A lot of the trt+ guys have reported hits to lipids from primo and mast even at 100-200mg (this site and others are littered with them). My hplc'd primo at 600mg put my hdl at 27 or 29. Tren at 525 with 350mg of winny per week put it at 21 (with liver values only out of range by a couple pts after 10+ weeks). Maybe 200mg of primo would be less but test/deca at any sane range touch neither lipids nor liver nor anything else. Frankly I get way more out of a near gram of Tren and winny than I do 600mg of primo but looking to treat my body better. Just wasn't expecting a sizable hit to lipids.

Test/Equipoise is next as it's not a DHT. Ultimately may not be any solution or just settle of an hdl hit once in a while and keep it minimal then stagger those cruises with test/deca cruises. Just experimenting and finding best risk/return tradeoff and what works for me. Been on Dr prescribed trt for over a decade and ran gear on/off since early 20s with some very long breaks. Interested in quality of life and minimizing unnecessary risk in that context.

 

[Tomgrass]

For better look instead of deca look into npp it is kinda like tren dbol together or primo dbol. Very full look but regarding aesthetic npp beats deca every time. Also npp at low bodyfat keeps me very vascular. 50 mg e2d is very noticeable. Trestolone 5-10 mg ed is also amazing.

 

[warlock]

200mg 1x per week is 1100-1000 serum test peak so a tad lower at trough. If I split to 2x I'd guess lower peak and higher trough. I cruise on cyp or enanthate.

When I started HRT I was prescribed 200 cyp and 20p deca every week. Bloods not effected at all over 2 years (I've run cyp and deca at 750/600 and similar) and held better but I'd like to find something dry and just a little more benign than a 19 nor or at least a periodic alternative. Might not be possible as primo and mast both hit my lipids. At end of day it's all a trade off but trying trying to find best return/risk asymmetry. Primo is best I've found so far. Orals are in the wrong direction though I'll use them periodically on blasts though not regularly.

20mg deca a week?

 

[warlock]

At 200mg per week I put on fat and lose offsetting muscle. Late 40s a bit over 6'2" and this is from 230-275lbs doesn't matter. I train with focus on compound lifts, coached teams and dabbled in S&C my whole life so I'd like to think I know how to train. Eat the same, doesn't matter. I need more not for "the look" but to maintain muscle mass or even come close (which is fine during a cruise, no miracle needed). Individual genetics plays a role here and that includes response to test, anabolic or hgh.

I'm trying to find the magic cruise that just holds me steady and doesn't touch bloods. Test and deca move nothing for me but I'd like something a tad drier. Primo hits my lipids solidly as I recently found (OK for blast but not ideal for a cruise for me). Maybe equipoise.

I think trestolone may be a great compound to use in your case. I'm talking low dose.

 

[Wonton]

How much muscle does one thing 5ft 8 person can hold naturally ? I think figuring out how much muscle people are over the average norm a body can hold is key to understanding, what your really asking your body to do

Of course its all subjective...objective and each person is different...BUT IF WE WHERE TO GENERALIZE