Mitochondria testing

[hogan87]

last time I brought up mitochondria testing here I got told "that isnt how any of this works" because of sponsorship pedaling lol https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/slu-pp-332.182654/post-3561667

consider the source of the ONE person that gave you shit. You know you can click "ignore" and their posts never show up, its really cool.

 

[professionaldyel]

blocking people on a forum that has a total of 50 active posters seems utterly fucking retarded and woman like.

 

[buck]

I am feeling my breast grow. May want to check my E2 levels.
I use the ignore button on occasion myself.
I am starting to feel the need again!

 

[hogan87]

blocking people on a forum that has a total of 50 active posters seems utterly fucking retarded and woman like.

1531 members online now. Yes, some are bots, guests... It`s not just 50 people posting. Others like to read and not see nonsense. Blocking idiots is "woman like", so I guess arguing with dumb strangers online (like in slu pp thread) makes you "manly"? Do you bro.

 

[professionaldyel]

1531 members online now. Yes, some are bots, guests... It`s not just 50 people posting. Others like to read and not see nonsense. Blocking idiots is "woman like", so I guess arguing with dumb strangers online (like in slu pp thread) makes you "manly"? Do you bro.

View attachment 249573

I can't tell if you're butt buddies with that person, or retarded. Regardless I linked one testing place (the same as you) and one potential testing place for mitochondria in that post

Scrolling through this https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?forums/professional-muscle-forum.2/ its the same 50ish people posting and commenting, I genuinely have no idea what you're yapping about.

 

[nothuman]

Are you suggesting all mitochondrial testing including clinically accredited institutions or specifically DTC?

Are you aware there's actually an autosomal recessive metabolic disorder, namely primary CoQ10 deficiency. Treatment – high doses of CoQ10.

I'm not dismissing healthy people supplementation—that often shows limited benefit, sure. Just like NAD+ precursors. Diseased state is a totally different talking point.

There's numerous mitochondrial disorders that are specifically dx' through different methodologies of mitochondrial testing, including all the aforementioned.

I will defer to you here because I haven’t done a deep investigation into mitochondrial testing but if there is a mitochondrial test available that is so efficient and provides a good analysis of the state of our mitochondria, is there a valid reason why it isn’t more popular?

What often happens is we find out certain functions in our bodies are important, like gut health to name an example, and then the next thing that happens is a whole bunch of marketers try to capitalize on it by creating all kinds of microbiome tests that turn out to be useless and not evidence based to make a buck.

CoQ10 deficiency is real of course but it rarely gets checked for since it usually requires a biopsy last I checked, since the lab test doesn’t measure what is happening at the tissue level. I am not aware of any studies that show that supplementation with it improves our mitochondria. The best evidence for CoQ10 is in heart failure patients.

I would like to hear more about the mitochondrial testing though and the evidence behind it. It’s a lot of cash to fork up on something that might not be reliable (not saying it’s not, just don’t know enough)

 

[bbxtreme]

I will defer to you here because I haven’t done a deep investigation into mitochondrial testing but if there is a mitochondrial test available that is so efficient and provides a good analysis of the state of our mitochondria, is there a valid reason why it isn’t more popular?

What often happens is we find out certain functions in our bodies are important, like gut health to name an example, and then the next thing that happens is a whole bunch of marketers try to capitalize on it by creating all kinds of microbiome tests that turn out to be useless and not evidence based to make a buck.

CoQ10 deficiency is real of course but it rarely gets checked for since it usually requires a biopsy last I checked, since the lab test doesn’t measure what is happening at the tissue level. I am not aware of any studies that show that supplementation with it improves our mitochondria. The best evidence for CoQ10 is in heart failure patients.

I would like to hear more about the mitochondrial testing though and the evidence behind it. It’s a lot of cash to fork up on something that might not be reliable (not saying it’s not, just don’t know enough)

I think Masterjohn’s test (DTC) is as close as we are going to get. To be fair, I believed the same thing as you- as we discussed offline on testing mitochondria as I wasn’t aware of his test until about a week after I did the ProM Podcast. He announced it via email shortly after.

I have no experience with it yet, not sure I would spend $699 on it knowing I keep my diet and supplements covered and how I live. But for someone who wants to test it then it appears to be a solid option with scientific research behind it. Which is a lot better than what Hyman and others are out here doing- using an OAT test to claim they are measuring mitochondria health. To me that is a stretch (my opinion).

I personally think “mitochondria health” is just the latest trend and buzzword in health. People are substituting it for “aging”. It gets clicks.

Here’s a good interview of MasterJohn with Rogan where they tackle mitochondria for anyone interested:

 

[buck]

Not surprisingly it seems that lifestyle plays the biggest part in mitochondrial damage. And those that have not taken care of themselves the best will benefit the most from mitochondrial supps/peps. And will notice the biggest changes it would seem.

 

[Stewie]

I will defer to you here because I haven’t done a deep investigation into mitochondrial testing but if there is a mitochondrial test available that is so efficient and provides a good analysis of the state of our mitochondria, is there a valid reason why it isn’t more popular?

What often happens is we find out certain functions in our bodies are important, like gut health to name an example, and then the next thing that happens is a whole bunch of marketers try to capitalize on it by creating all kinds of microbiome tests that turn out to be useless and not evidence based to make a buck.

CoQ10 deficiency is real of course but it rarely gets checked for since it usually requires a biopsy last I checked, since the lab test doesn’t measure what is happening at the tissue level. I am not aware of any studies that show that supplementation with it improves our mitochondria. The best evidence for CoQ10 is in heart failure patients.

I would like to hear more about the mitochondrial testing though and the evidence behind it. It’s a lot of cash to fork up on something that might not be reliable (not saying it’s not, just don’t know enough)

I understand and respect your skepticism. I get it. This is an emerging field of DTC mitochondrial testing, like a lot of things, it's "trendy" if one is seeking mitochondrial optimization. In light, it mirrors DTC gene SNP testing –like 23andMe, etc, a-many of individuals have pursued. Both are popular among people trying to optimize health by "outsmarting" their genetics or their specific biology. Either by rummaging through published epigenetic conceptualizations or ideas from like-minded individuals; or making targeted tweaks in their current protocols. Some of these concepts are drawn on real underlying science.

That said, for the time being, neither has strong, independent evidence showing they reliably improve health outcomes in healthy people beyond what solid lifestyle basics already deliver. They can motivate useful tweaks and help avoid blindly stacking supplements like CoQ10, NAD+ precursors or specific substrates, cofactors, or intermediates. However, over-interpreting or hyperfixating the results can sometimes chase ghosts to misleading conclusions or chasing unproven fixes. We become our own petri-dishes in pursuit of immortality.


As for Masterjohn’s Mitome testing specifically. If I was to presume the actual machine performing the analysis is a UV-Vis spectrophotometer or a microplate reader version for kinetic measurements. We used these my 2nd year of biochem. These are common benchtop instruments in biochem labs. Anybody can purchase a research grade model that typically costs roughly $2,000–$15,000 new (higher-end automated systems cost more). It’s not exotic or ultra-specialized hardware. Someone may run into obstacles to getting your hands on different reagents (chemicals) to run the assays.


The raw lab analysis itself isn’t overly complex or dependent on exotic technology. It’s a simple at home cheek swab (buccal) that measures the activity levels of the main respiratory chain complexes (I, II, II+III, IV) plus a marker for mitochondrial mass (citrate synthase), using standard biochemical/spectrophotometric assays.

These are the same general methods that have been studied in research settings for decades, with some studies showing reasonable correlation with muscle biopsy results in patients with known mitochondrial defects. The literature with clinical utility is very well established.

Again, I'm speculating Masterjohn has one or utilizes a lab that does. To run these tests, the machine would likely pay for itself after a relatively small number of samples. Then high profit margin thereafter.

What adds the proprietary layer (and the main point of skepticism) is the algorithmic interpretation. This is analyzing patterns and ratios, categorizing into “mitochondrial types,” and generating personalized food, supplement, and lifestyle protocols based on a synthesis of mitochondrial bioenergetics literature. In essence, it provides a functional snapshot of your mitochondrial respiratory chain activity rather than a static genetic picture such as your 23andMe SNPs.

I totally get why someone would hold off until more independent validation comes out. I’m in the same boat and not interested in overhyping these things.

As for preemptively exploring how dis/functional your mitochondrial are prior to using any specific mitokine/ mitochondria peptides. As aforementioned, it could help indirectly. Although, you may have an underlying nutritional deficiency or too much of a mineral overload. Or some other weird shit going on that needs to be addressed separately.