More sensible approach to training?

Jimbo · Jun 20, 2008

Hey, I just switched training methods cause I was stalling on my old method.
Here is what ive been kind of doing. Would like your input.
I pick and weight that I can do a solid 15 reps.
I stop around 12 and instead of trying to increase the weights all I have been doind is increasing the the amounts of sets
example
First week when I did t-bar rown I
did 3x12 reps not to failure
next week 5 x 12
Now I upped the reps tp 15 and did 5x15
moved up the weight by 10 pounds and started over by doing 3x12 not to failure

I like more of a volume approch to training. Is this a good way to go about it?
I understand that there is no best way to train but, when I using low volume and pushing every set to failure I couldnt walk and would be sore for up to six days. Im finding with this method im not run down and soreness is minimal

c3r3br0 · Jun 20, 2008

T-U-T

Time under tension is key regardless of number of sets and reps and even weight for that matter. How long is the muscle under stress or load? This is why timing becomes important in lifts from minimizing lock out and rest positions to accentuating negatives.

The other aspect is paying attention to what set/rep combo your body best responds. Muscle fiber proportions vary between muscle groups and even from person to person. There is evidence that a sprinter can't be a marathon runner and vice-versa. Not because they train differently but because their genetics (specifically muscle fibers) are more conducive to their elected sport. This is the same in the gym, one guy grows with 5x8's and another with 3x10's, and even still this can vary with each muscle group.

Training to failure just means the body has started "fighting" you because the stress is too much. It is the last "non-cheat" rep that you can do. If you're doing extraneous movements to get the weight up you could actually be hurting yourself at this point. It's like putting that last bit of air in a balloon which causes it to pop. The evidence of lactic acid build up, which on a basic level is your body trying to stop you from using the muscle so that it can repair it, is also a good indicator.

As a side note, it sounds like you might be over-trained. If possible do a week or two of light weight and rest those "tired bones", you will come back stronger. Paying attention to recovery time is key for EACH muscle group. Once fully repaired, work it again. If it isn't then you are at a disadvantage because you are not using the entire muscle and you may be putting yourself at risk.

Fa Seeshus · Jun 21, 2008

if you want to make it progressive, time the rest intervals or total workout length. then you are gradually increasing amount of work done in a given time.

this works well if you are alternating between 2 movements.

charles staley has a whole training system built on this method:

**broken link removed**
i like training this way for a period, as it gives my joints and cns a break.

i don't think training to absolute failure is even necessary on lower volume programs though. plenty of big powerlifters and o lifters do not hit failure. they simply progress the weights upward in a logical manner.

Jimbo · Jun 21, 2008

That gave me some good food for thought
I think im gonna setup my program like this now

First set of 3x12 Wait 1 min rest
Next time 5x12 rest time 45 sec
next time 5x12 rest time 30.

Move up in weight and start over. Thanks for the link

Dave_19 · Jun 21, 2008

I would not recommend wasting your time by doing this. It sounds like an easy way out. Those last couple reps are the most effective, no way around this. If you want to skip them you are skipping the most effective portion of your resistance training, regardless of the # of sets you are doing. If you just want to maintain average size/strength I think its a decent approach.

Fa Seeshus · Jun 21, 2008

"Those last couple reps are the most effective, no way around this."

the cumulative fatigue you get from this method makes many of the reps in the later sets feel like those same "last reps" you are referring too--espec when the time limits are adhered to. obviously if he is not taking anything to failure and taking as long as he wants betw sets, then he is training sorta lazy. it is the cut rest intervals that generate the fatigue.

i understand where you are coming from, but i think there are other options to get the same level of tension without literally breaking down in form during the set. the timed sets or drop sets and supersets can recruit those fibers without the trainee needing to literally stall under the bar.

Jimbo · Jun 21, 2008

Gave my first try at this routine.
Paired things up like this

Bench press with
barbell curl
for 15 min

rest 5

lying leg curl supersetted with
reverse wrist curls
for 15 min

Its tuff but no sets taken to failure. I sure am tired as hell thought. I like the setup of this progam. Will let you know how everything goes next time when I hit chest again... Simple formula, I like that

Dave_19 · Jun 23, 2008

Fa Seeshus said:
"Those last couple reps are the most effective, no way around this."

the cumulative fatigue you get from this method makes many of the reps in the later sets feel like those same "last reps" you are referring too--espec when the time limits are adhered to. obviously if he is not taking anything to failure and taking as long as he wants betw sets, then he is training sorta lazy. it is the cut rest intervals that generate the fatigue.

i understand where you are coming from, but i think there are other options to get the same level of tension without literally breaking down in form during the set. the timed sets or drop sets and supersets can recruit those fibers without the trainee needing to literally stall under the bar.

Well its your body. If you choose to believe its ok to always stop before you hit failure every set, then be like the millions who train wrong every day.

Fa Seeshus · Jun 23, 2008

i'm not really disagreeing with your training method, obviously works for you. just saying that sometimes some people can't use it all the time. timed volume programs let the trainee quantify progress while not following a conventional rep-set scheme. on these programs you can actually get very close to failure--you just don't hit momentary muscular failure.

i trained strictly OT and Yates style mentzer training for a few years. then, for sports performance reasons, i switched to o lifting and westside style p-lifting, both which de-emphasived failure and put the focus on muscle activation through power and acceleration. for some reason i responded very well to that in terms of hypertrophy. i think this has to do with my mostly fast twitch fiber make-up.

i just don't think some people need to hit the wall every time. sprinters do not run as absolutely fast as they can every time they train-- they manipulate other variables, and gradually progress to faster times. the same is possible with lifting.

dorian yates says that one of his main regrets was not knowing when to slightly back off on intensity. he blames this for his career ending injuries.

that is cool that you can make consistent progress taking each set to failure--must make training a bit simpler.

V3ng3anc333 · Jun 23, 2008

i would also say that training to failure each and every set isnt neccessary.
Sometimes there are even workouts where i dont train to failure at all.

I believe they key to success it to keep your body always guessing.

Switch your training methods every now and then to give your body a new impulse to adapt - has worked very well for me.

Big B · Jun 23, 2008

simply

over training is not your best shot specially if you are looking for mass...

you need to remember the anabolic and catabolic effect that you gain during your workout...understanding this will let you understand that too many is not good.

I keep it crazy heavy and less reps.

Leviathan · Jun 24, 2008

I think it's a noble thing to experiment and try out different things. I never made really good progress until I stopped going to failure, just leaving a couple reps "in the bag" and varying my volume workout to workout. I did that several years ago and made excellent gains, and often look back on that phase of training with a bit of nostalga really.

abolish the weak · Jun 24, 2008

Excellent idea. All you hear is talks of training to failure. 2-3 forced reps and all this other crap. My experience has been when I leave one or two reps in the chamber I get stronger and bigger, VERY FAST!! I'm coming back the next workout more recovered, and also staying more recovered throughout the week because I havent pushed it so hard. However I myself would not do that many sets, I would actually force myself to stop a set or two earlier than I would have normally, sometimes we get too caught up in the moment, and forget how our bodies really grow, outside the gym. If you've touched on the heavy weight, done a few sets, your body has had what it needs to stress the muscle. Very few people respond well to high volume Arnold Schwarzenegger type shit. I've always gotten more out of the Dorian Yates/ Mike Mentzer style of training

Titan1969 · Jun 24, 2008

keep a log....

Everyones different. If you not moving up in weight/reps over a period of a few weeks then your either not stimulating the muscle to growth, not feeding or resting enough. In my experience the longer youve been in BB game the more often I find people over train.

For example...
When I was 15 I could do chest monday/wednesday/friday. 3 exercises 3-4 sets with lets say 135lbs on the bench press.

Today at 39 I do chest once a week 3 exercises 3-4 sets but im benching 365 for reps. The amount of muscle recruited is higher, the amount of damage to the fiber/s is greater and the rebuilding time is longer.

Certainly if I were to attempt benching 3 times per week I would get weaker or worse seriously injure myself due to the muscles inability to recoup.

Now the question is what works for you? I did Mentzer style got very strong but didnt enjoy my workouts as much...so short but yes productive and found I had to supplement with more cardio due to such short workouts. So I went back to volume training which I prefer and still make great progress but dont use as much weight.

gten79 · Jun 24, 2008

c3r3bro is right on.

Also changing ones routine's isn't necessary. Your muscles will not guess. They will continue to grow even if you have been doing the same rountine for years as long as nutrition and progression is in order.

Different effects are achieved through different loads which can be achieved by adjusting the time under tension.

Very heavy loads, low TUT equals mainly CNS stimulation (strength)

Moderate loads, moderate TUT equals mainly myofibril growth (actual increase in fiber thickness)

Light load, higher TUT equals sarcoplasmic hypertophy which means increase glycogen and nutrient capacity and also musclular endurance.

Has nothing to do with Volume, HIT, or whatever flavor of the month program people are talking about. Its about load. Always has, always will and there are several methods to achieve it.

One guy swears by his program, the other swears by his. They ALL incorporate basic criteria to achieve some sort of hypertrophy so arguing which ones is the best without looking at HOW muscle grows and what stimuli exert different effects is a waste.

There is never just one muscle or one type of hypertrophy you want. You want them all to extent but focus on one area a bit more for your own personal goal.