Muscle Growth ...

[BigJB]

It doesn't really matter how you get there, if you get your lifts to weights similar to cutlers, you will pretty much be as large as possible. Why not get to those strength levels as quickly and efficiently as possible? Would you rather take 10+ years to get to your mass limit, or 3-4?

 

[Kaladryn]

"The muscle has no idea how much weight you are lifting, only how much stress it is under."

 

[Turkishexpress]

With some of the arguments put on here, shouldn't powerlifters turned bodybuilders technically have an advantage? I'm just thinking considering they usually concentrate on increasing weights with relatively good form over the years.

 

[powerlifter1800]

With some of the arguments put on here, shouldn't powerlifters turned bodybuilders technically have an advantage? I'm just thinking considering they usually concentrate on increasing weights with relatively good form over the years.

I agree with this from what i have seen a lot of powerlifters are really thick and dense they just really lack the shape to the muscle. Also alot of them never go above 5 reps so they are keeping the really low and on thier acessories they will do more volume but i dont think its enough to give them the BB look. Im not saying they cant be big and lean but they lack in some areas like arms and some in the shoulders. Again they are big guys with a great base to build off of but they just need more refining.

 

[BigJB]

Muscular shape is genetic.

 

[BigJB]

"The muscle has no idea how much weight you are lifting, only how much stress it is under."

405lbs puts more stress on your muscle than 225 no matter how you superset your 225... Volume equals blood pump and endurance, not necessarily increased tissue breakdown.

 

[osiris]

Muscular shape is genetic.

Agreed and there Is a huge difference between powerlifting and powerbuilding(bodybuilding). Improved cans recruitmr nted, economy of movement, all the items powrrkifters train for are different than bodybuilding to me. They adjust form to handle more weight, we adjust to contract the muscle more

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[letz]

"The muscle has no idea how much weight you are lifting, only how much stress it is under."

this sums it up, atleast for me, ive kept the same weight for a loooong time now, yet ikeep getting bigger, no need for progressing in stenght, atleast for me

 

[mountaindog1]

My two cents on a Sunday morning...


Muscle growth comes from

1) mechanical tension - think increases in actin and myosin - larger diameter of a muscle fiber - push some steel intelligently - myofibrillar hypertrophy

2) metabolic stress - think sarcoplasmic hypertrophy - cell swelling, hypoxia, muscle ischemia, etc...

3) muscle damage - think inflammatory response - you need a little to set muscle growth in action..

This is what science "kind of" knows...and all are incorporated into my training system. I don't look at it as use 5 x 5, or just a bunch of pump sets. i get the best of all worlds.

Additionally, I believe you can do things with your nervous system such as using accomodating resistance, to augment muscle gains even more. I am trying to bring this to the forefront in bodybuilding. Those who have done it, can testify to how it works. The better and more efficient your nervous system, the more you will engage high threshold motor units if you train a specific way. At the risk of sounding like a totol d-bag, I believe my training is way ahead of science to be honest.

You can't talk about training without talking about periworkout nutrition either. They go hand in hand. Don't pay attention to this, and inflammation and muscle damage will get out of control, you'll go too far, and you'll feel crippled. If you manage insulin correctly during training, you will not go to deep into the red zone and will limit muscle protein breakdown. If you provide high quality hydrolysates, you will enhance muscle protein synthesis.

I can expound on this more if people want to hear my views....

One more thing....overtraining.....well am I overtraining if the people who follow my protocol exactly don't get sore and their joints feel tip top, and they get stronger....which is exactly what happens guidelines are followed to the T.

JM

 

[Swiper]

can someone explain how merely pumping a muscle up with blood makes it grow? it's like blowing up a balloon. big when full, then what happens when you go back to normal? how is that achieving anything? it never did anything for me, and in fact, i shrunk.
i think there's a difference between tiring a muscle out and getting lactic acid burn, and generating overload so you damage, and then overcompensate on the muscle when it recovers.
and kai green said in that "i'll never be a weightlifter" or whatever video that the key is tension with increasingly heavier weights, so again, progressive overload. one of top-ranked amateurs in the light heavyweight division at my gym said it also. he grew to his size by lower weights and heavy weights.

because when u get the pump then ur suppose to feed it by doing more reps and exercises. it's tearing the muscle fibers. as they repair, it grows. and sure u can increase ur weight during the workout.

 

[Bog]

I can expound on this more if people want to hear my views....

JM

Yes, please.

B

 

[magnus82]

John, you are way ahead of science. Thank you for all your contributions.

My two cents on a Sunday morning...


Muscle growth comes from

1) mechanical tension - think increases in actin and myosin - larger diameter of a muscle fiber - push some steel intelligently - myofibrillar hypertrophy

2) metabolic stress - think sarcoplasmic hypertrophy - cell swelling, hypoxia, muscle ischemia, etc...

3) muscle damage - think inflammatory response - you need a little to set muscle growth in action..

This is what science "kind of" knows...and all are incorporated into my training system. I don't look at it as use 5 x 5, or just a bunch of pump sets. i get the best of all worlds.

Additionally, I believe you can do things with your nervous system such as using accomodating resistance, to augment muscle gains even more. I am trying to bring this to the forefront in bodybuilding. Those who have done it, can testify to how it works. The better and more efficient your nervous system, the more you will engage high threshold motor units if you train a specific way. At the risk of sounding like a totol d-bag, I believe my training is way ahead of science to be honest.

You can't talk about training without talking about periworkout nutrition either. They go hand in hand. Don't pay attention to this, and inflammation and muscle damage will get out of control, you'll go too far, and you'll feel crippled. If you manage insulin correctly during training, you will not go to deep into the red zone and will limit muscle protein breakdown. If you provide high quality hydrolysates, you will enhance muscle protein synthesis.

I can expound on this more if people want to hear my views....

One more thing....overtraining.....well am I overtraining if the people who follow my protocol exactly don't get sore and their joints feel tip top, and they get stronger....which is exactly what happens guidelines are followed to the T.

JM

 

[workhard2121]

Definitely go into more detail JM!

 

[maldorf]

maldorf if you bench 300lbs for 8 reps in 30 seconds, or 12 reps in 15 seconds you feel one would promote more growth in the first instance?

In that case Im assuming your thought would be slower eccentrics cause more growth...

Now what if we put 3 people (assuming they were clones) on 3 different methods... 1 on dc. 1 on JM 1 on BBB and gave them all a surplus of 500 calories per day would they not all gain the same amount of muscle?

Well, a lot of it has to do with how much "work' you have done too, so its not all time under tension I believe. Its really a matter of several factors. Work is force X distance moved. Then you can also figure power which is basically work/time.

In the case you mention here I would say the individual doing the 12 reps would get quite a bit more stimulation to grow because he is doing more work. Now if you took the case you presented and made both of them do the same amount of work, both did 8 reps, and the only difference was one was over 30 seconds and the other was over 15 seconds then the guy doing it slower would get more stimulation. NOw take that guy doing 300 lbs in 15 seconds and make him do it in 30 seconds, that would be a tougher set!

 

[anarchocapitalist]

My two cents from a nobody who likes a workout:

Its progressive overload the builds muscle.

Getting stronger is not a guarantee that you'll develop larger muscles. You can get stronger without getting larger by increasing economy of motion. But a larger muscle is always a stronger one.

I agree with DC. Its pretty clear that moving heavy weights is the key to building muscle. Yes there are examples of strong men who aren't the most muscular but on an individual basis getting stronger is the only way to get bigger. Otherwise doing 1000 pushups and squats would be the best way to maximize muscle mass instead of barbell squats and benches.

 

[sma]

this is a great thread here... so basically John your saying your hitting best of both worlds increasing strength while still providing a higher volume and is this is one of your routines or is one program set up specifically for myosin and actin increases over sarcoplasmic and vice versa? or do you combine them in each routine?

 

[mountaindog1]

Well there is how to grow, and then there is how do you grow the absolute fastest...meaning attacking every way a muscle can grow with a well thought out plan.

Nobody says progressive overload doesn't work. You'd be really dumb to say that. That is not even debatable.

You are also way behind if you think that is the only way a muscle has the capacity to grow in size.


JM

 

[VOXpol]

Can I break this down and make this very basic?

If you wanted to build the biggest traps your unique genetic structure and genetics allowed how would you go about doing that?

You would incorporate shrugs correct? There is probably not any other exercise (in most peoples opinion) that is going to build bigger traps than shrugs. (I would personally include rack deadlifts and regular deadlifts in that equation but) for the sake of this argument lets agree that shrugs is the most productive exercise to build traps.

So.............

What is going to build the biggest trap size?

a) Twin Johnny who shrugs 135 x 12 and then supersets it with upright rows, and then back to shrugs and then back to upright rows and then back to shrugs and then back to upright rows and then next time giant sets 135x12 shrugs with 60 pound dumbell shrugss for 12 with upright rows for 12 with 135 hammer strength shrugs for 12 and then next time does 135 pound shrugs with chains on the end and on and on and on and on and on running around overthinking time under tension over progression.................while using drugs and eating food and taking supplements for the next 6 years doing variations of the above method. Every time he did the above it would be hard to do.

or

b) Twin Jimmy who does 135 x 12 shrugs today and over the next 6 years with drugs and eating food and taking supplements (also like Johnny) works his way up to the point where he is doing 600 pound shrugs for 20 reps with awesome form.

Twin Jimmy would absolutely DESTROY Johnnys traps...his traps would be freaking monstrous. Could he get to 600 pounds for 20 reps in good form? I dont know but just the path there of trying to do it would build huge amounts of muscle.

That is how important productive exercises used progressively over years in safe form and in safe rep ranges absolutely destroy people who overthink this stuff until they are blue in the face.

Lets also have twins johnny and jimmy try to build huge thighs. At the end of the journey Jimmy can now squat 560 pounds for 22 deep reps in perfect form. Johnny overthought everything and did every new exercise routine that came down the pike with fancy names and new methodology and he now supersets sissy squats with leg press and then runs over to the hack squat and supersets that with front squats....he doesnt care about whats on the bar....its actually kind of light for a guy who has been training for as long as him but he doesnt care because boy is he tired running around doing these giant sets and it feels like its doing something.

Jimmy just squatted 560 for 22 deep reps
Johnny just ran around like a chicken with his head cut off between sissy squats, hacks, front squats and leg press with weights that a 180 pound high school kid could use on those movements.

Who do you think has monstrous quads?

Training hard and heavy isnt easy and neither is it totally safe. There is a risk factor. There is a reason why the most massive bodybuilders on this earth got hurt eventually (Coleman Yates etc).... There is also a reason why they were the most massive bodybuilders on earth.

Great post! Speaking form my own experience, every time I have gained significant amounts of muscle, I also gained considerable strength...and vice versa

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

"The muscle has no idea how much weight you are lifting, only how much stress it is under."

In that vein of thought we could all never put more than 135 pounds on the bar for our entire lifting careers and continually get larger.

How would you improve then over 10 years and thousands of workouts?

There are just so many exercises you can do per bodypart....just for example how many exercises are there for quads? Squats, hacks, leg presses, smith squats, front squats, lunges, leg extensions and lets say we could come up with 1 or 2 more if we really thought it out.

Thats 7-9 exercises

If over the next 6 years you do 312 leg workouts how do you make sure that you beat what you have previously done? Because you sure as heck dont "get better or improve" if you do the same workout or less than what you have previously done.

Six years and 312 workouts from now a squat is still a squat and if you started out with 225 for 8 reps and a whole 312 workouts later you are still working out with 225 for 8 reps (I dont care how many intensity techniques or supersetting or pre-exhausting you do....thats still three hundred and twelve workouts that you need to get continually better at and you can pretty much run out of intensity techniques within a short time period)....so if anyone in this forum is still squatting the same amount of weight in good form they did 6 years and 312 workouts ago...Im pretty sure their quads are not going to show astounding changes.

We can run around the block 30 times about this subject and the reality of the situation is

a) if you take a shitload of drugs it doesnt matter....pretty much anything you do is going to make you grow and guys who take a shitload of drugs lose the concept of "hey how would a natural bodybuilder grow after his 3rd or 4th year of lifting?" By staying with the same weights for the next 6 years and feeling the burn? No he isnt going to grow. Now a Juiced up to the gills bodybuilder on anabolics and gh? Dumbell kickbacks and sissy squats make that guy grow. Throw in incredible genetics (usually a black mesomorphic bodybuilder like the ones you see winning pro and amateur shows all the time when they are outnumbered competing wise by white bodybuilders by probably a 9 to 1 margin if not more)......take those guys and pump in the juice and gh and they grow doing things that the common every day man would get virtually nothing out of. I would be willing to bet that 90% of the hardcore bodybuilders on these boards lift much harder, like their life depended on it, than the genetic elite.

b) Its my personal opinion that people never can admit that what they are doing right now training wise "isnt making them grow". No matter who it is they will stick their chest out and tell everyone in vicinity that "what they are doing right now is making them grow". If that was the truth then there would be nobody who needed more size on these boards...it would be easy. Alot of advanced bodybuilders totally forget the two times in their lifting careers when they put on the most size. They all say the same thing. "I do this and this and this now and I find i grow just great with light weights"....well is it because you already built the size previously and you are maintaining or are you leaning up and you look better...and you arent one iota bigger truthfully? Or are you truly gaining 20 pounds of lean muscle mass a year lifting light <----- (that is not happening).........

the two times that people gain the most size are

1) first two years of lifting....they change almost daily. They also get incredibly rapid strength gains on all exercises during this time. 135 pound for reps squats turn into 275 pound squats. 135 pound bench presses reps turn into 260 pound bench presses for reps. 150 pound beginners turn into 200 pound beginning bodybuilders....(while their training poundages double and triple in some cases)....coincedence? All you have to do is look at all the people who start lifting for the sake of staying in shape only and they stay with the same training weights all the time....they go to the gym...they are consistent...they sure dont gain much size.

2) Second time people gain incredible size....They start using steroids. What happens? AGAIN their training poundages go thru the roof. 275 squats for reps now turn into 455 squats for reps. incline presses that were 225 for reps now turn into 350 for reps. And rapid size increases occur. And then after a few cycles over time strength gains slow down rapidly and so do the size increases.

Virtually all bodybuilders forget these periods in their lifting careers because again...nobody wants to think what they are doing right NOW isnt the tip top #1 perfect lifting routine for themselves...otherwise it screws up the whole belief system.

Perfect lifting routine? If everyone in this forum and all forums online could find the perfect mechanical positioning on exercises for their unique bodies and the perfect recovery rate as it pertained to amount of workload to do so you could rapidly train that bodypart again.....if they could do that and with supplementation, food, and drugs or whatever tools they choose to use....they took all their training poundages they are currently using for 8-20 reps in good safe form and DRAMATICALLY INCREASED THEM (maybe even doubling them) for 8-20 reps in good safe form....you would have a boatload of gigantic bodybuilders who would be as good as their unique genetic shape, size, proportions, symmetry allowed them to be.

I still to this day cannot think of one bodybuilder who had a crappy upper chest who inclined over 400 pounds in good safe form for 8 plus reps but there are thousands upon thousands of bodybuilders who will say "you dont need to use heavy weights" who do.

 

[Big Dave Smith]

JM and DC. Those are the only posts I need to read... but if you don't know that stuff by now, you probably aren't growing.

I remember TooPowerful4U and I had this conversation YEARS ago about sarcoplasmic vs myofibril and how you need both.

I'm currently back to my off-season, DC style logbook. I've kept a logbook for 6 years now. When I talk to the LHW and MW's at my gym who have been stuck in the same weight class for years, they think I'm out of my mind. Most of them have been taught to "shape" their muscles. Old school, moronic, mythological training concepts. They're convinced it's because I've "upped the dose". I've actually LOWERED the dose.

One LHW in particular has added in year round GH, insulin, test, etc. He does no cardio pre-contest, eats no fats (considers commercial red meat fat his fat), never gets blood work done... and I've never actually seen him barbell squat, deadlift. He hates my guts.

The best part is... I'm out numbered. They all listen to eachother because "old school works!". NOTE- None of them have won overalls. None of them have competed at the national level. Several of them have had cardiac problems.