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Muscle mass and test dose

totalrecomp

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i believe Dante told Meadows to lower or come off nolva altogether after his heart issues, i remember John saying he was using something like 40mg a day.
I am NOT directing the conversation down that path. I have no knowledge of the situation nor care to speculate. I want to focus on the compounds and what we do/don't know about their effects on the human body.
 

LATS

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i believe Dante told Meadows to lower or come off nolva altogether after his heart issues, i remember John saying he was using something like 40mg a day.
I told John this same thing.. nolva is known for blood clot issues.. john agreed .. but I don't know if he ever came off it.. 40mgs is big dose to be taking that long.. but John really loved nolva..
 

SouthernMuscle

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i found this interesting

Hernandez RK, Sørensen HT, Pedersen L, Jacobsen J, Lash TL. Tamoxifen treatment and risk of deep venous thrombosis and pulmonary embolism: a Danish population-based cohort study. Cancer. 2009 Oct 1;115(19):4442-9. doi: 10.1002/cncr.24508. PMID: 19569248.

 

Bio

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The issue isn't estro in regards to prostate cancer but the estro / test ratio many are finding.. I had a Dr tell me at Barnes Hospital that the ratio is more important than the estro levels.. if test is in the higher range then we would expect estro to be higher and even desire it. To have supra levels of test and normal levels of estro is not desired.. now in older men who test levels have dropped and estro has elevated the use of anti e could be a very desirable treatment..

I posted this story some time ago but roughly 8 years ago or so I was only on Test E for a year and the dose would vary between 400 to 600mg. My doctor said, "I can't remember all my patients blood work but you have the best cholesterol ratio I've ever seen."
 

Bobik

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I posted this story some time ago but roughly 8 years ago or so I was only on Test E for a year and the dose would vary between 400 to 600mg. My doctor said, "I can't remember all my patients blood work but you have the best cholesterol ratio I've ever seen."
without AI?
 

LATS

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The link between estrogen and blood clots is well documented and still not 100% understood.

Now are the levels that become risky the same with men and women? Who knows. Is it the actual levels that matter or cumalitive exposure? Are the risks even higher for BBers with elevated H/H? These are all important questions to ponder and then ask are the known/unknown risks of AI use better/worse? Are the risks of AI's cumalitive or only while taking???

I met a drug sales rep who spent his whole career selling Tamoxifen and then Ralista/Raloxifen. I asked what his thoughts were on the side effects of tamoxifen and without me even finishing my question he stated with authority: "Blood clots, blood clots, blood clots." When I asked if raloxifene was any better he said no. Take that for what it's worth.

I think we have take an appoarch catered to the individual. Familial history of bloot clots and cancer? Probably better off managing estrogen a little more aggresively than someone who does not have such.
Yep.. nolva gets a rep for being friendly on lipids.. but the clotting issue is aweful.. I talked a few times with meadows about that as he was a nolva fan..
 

OuchThatHurts

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The issue isn't estro in regards to prostate cancer but the estro / test ratio many are finding.. I had a Dr tell me at Barnes Hospital that the ratio is more important than the estro levels.. if test is in the higher range then we would expect estro to be higher and even desire it. To have supra levels of test and normal levels of estro is not desired.. now in older men who test levels have dropped and estro has elevated the use of anti e could be a very desirable treatment..
100% agreed. You always put things in a way that is far more understandable than I do. Plus @LATS , you know your stuff. 💯
 

LATS

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OuchThatHurts

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I posted this story some time ago but roughly 8 years ago or so I was only on Test E for a year and the dose would vary between 400 to 600mg. My doctor said, "I can't remember all my patients blood work but you have the best cholesterol ratio I've ever seen."
I did 2ml's testosterone enanthate (500mg) a week for over a year and my bloodwork was impeccable. HCT and RBCs on high end of normal but within range. Also probably the best performance long-term that I've ever had. I was an animal in the gym, at work, and in the bedroom. I wish I could do that again. But I had to go off all, then out popped one daughter and 3 years later still off, out popped my 2nd daughter. Test acted like birth control!
 

warlock

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The issue isn't estro in regards to prostate cancer but the estro / test ratio many are finding.. I had a Dr tell me at Barnes Hospital that the ratio is more important than the estro levels.. if test is in the higher range then we would expect estro to be higher and even desire it. To have supra levels of test and normal levels of estro is not desired.. now in older men who test levels have dropped and estro has elevated the use of anti e could be a very desirable treatment..

Good post. The question is what's the desired test to estro ratio? Any thoughts?
 

OuchThatHurts

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T/E2 ratio is not a defined parameter but I feel best at 200-300 to 1 (test to estro 200:1)

But here's a good calculator for anyone that feels this ratio is very important as LATS and I do.

 

Kaladryn

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i believe Dante told Meadows to lower or come off nolva altogether after his heart issues, i remember John saying he was using something like 40mg a day.
I said the same thing in forum posts here after JMs first heart incident as it was my absolute first suspect the second I heard. Long-term nolvadex use is extremely nasty. Years ago when he said 40mg/day was standard for him I was quite horrified. I've tried to talk others out of constant nolvadex usage many times in the past, always because of the clot risk.
 

Kaladryn

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I did 2ml's testosterone enanthate (500mg) a week for over a year and my bloodwork was impeccable. HCT and RBCs on high end of normal but within range. Also probably the best performance long-term that I've ever had. I was an animal in the gym, at work, and in the bedroom. I wish I could do that again. But I had to go off all, then out popped one daughter and 3 years later still off, out popped my 2nd daughter. Test acted like birth control!
I did 500mg/week for 4 years and my bloodwork was always spot on. I gained about 20lbs per year.
 

Bio

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Bio

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These are the types of discussions I enjoy. We've known for a while that Nolvadex can cause blood clots and that message is coming more to the forefront now that John Meadows has passed. I remember when I was coming up early on, Anavar was looked at as one of the safest steroids you could use. At that time, with the data at hand, the idea of it being totally safe was based on toxicity. Now we know that Anavar, which people are using at high doses for longer and longer periods, will crush your HDL quickly and leave you without the cardiovascular protection. The only way we optimize health as much as possible in this game is through the sharing of data.

I think information like this also belongs in the Definitive Health thread.
 

SouthernMuscle

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Tamoxifen treatment and risk of deep venous thrombosis and pulmonary embolism: a Danish population-based cohort study​

Affiliation​

  • 1Department of Epidemiology, Boston University School of Public Health, Boston, Massachusetts, USA. [email protected]

Abstract​

Background: Tamoxifen therapy is reported to increase the risk of deep venous thrombosis and pulmonary embolism (DVT/PE). To the authors' knowledge, it is not yet known whether the risk changes with the amount of time elapsed since the initial tamoxifen prescription. This information would be valuable in identifying patients at high risk for DVT/PE.

Methods: The relation between timing of tamoxifen use and venous thromboembolism risk was examined. The study population of 16,289 women was identified from the clinical database of the Danish Breast Cancer Cooperative Group. It included women diagnosed with International Union Against Cancer (UICC) stage I or stage II estrogen receptor-positive breast cancer between 1990 and 2004 at ages 45 to 69 years. Risks, risk ratios (RRs), and crude and adjusted hazards ratios were calculated for each of the first 5 years after breast cancer surgery and then cumulatively over the next 5 years.

Results: The 5-year risk of DVT/PE was 1.2% for women receiving tamoxifen and 0.50% for women not receiving tamoxifen. Women treated with tamoxifen were at a higher risk for DVT/PE during the first 2 years after exposure (RR, 3.5; 95% confidence interval [95% CI], 2.1-6.0). Subsequently, their risk was not found to be substantially increased (RR, 1.5; 95% CI, 0.88-2.5). Older women taking tamoxifen appeared to be at higher risk than younger women during the first 2 years of exposure.


Conclusions: The findings of the current study suggest that the first 2 years after the initiation of tamoxifen therapy may be the most crucial time for monitoring DVT/PE risk, particularly in older women.
2009 American Cancer Society.
 

OuchThatHurts

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These are the types of discussions I enjoy. We've known for a while that Nolvadex can cause blood clots and that message is coming more to the forefront now that John Meadows has passed. I remember when I was coming up early on, Anavar was looked at as one of the safest steroids you could use. At that time, with the data at hand, the idea of it being totally safe was based on toxicity. Now we know that Anavar, which people are using at high doses for longer and longer periods, will crush your HDL quickly and leave you without cardiovascular protection. The only way we optimize health as much as possible in this game is through the sharing of data.

I think information like this also belongs in the Definitive Health thread

I love these threads as well. Should be noted maybe also, the importance of T/E2 vs just T or E2 alone. I consider this very important. And I'm not the first one to show high E2 ranges to be fine but along with corresponding high T range has shown to increase wellbeing and health. For example: TT 1200ng/dL and 55pg/mL E2 = 210:1 ratio (all within perfectly normal range). Or 2400 TT and E2 at 120pg/dL. Sounds crazy right? But try having TT at 2400 and E2 at 30pg. It doesn't work that way.

Which reinforces my theory: get your gyno and mammary glands taken out if you can! Your nipples shouldn't be dictating what you do or how you feel. That's not a bellwether. Not at all.
 

totalrecomp

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Tamoxifen treatment and risk of deep venous thrombosis and pulmonary embolism: a Danish population-based cohort study​

Affiliation​

  • 1Department of Epidemiology, Boston University School of Public Health, Boston, Massachusetts, USA. [email protected]

Abstract​

Background: Tamoxifen therapy is reported to increase the risk of deep venous thrombosis and pulmonary embolism (DVT/PE). To the authors' knowledge, it is not yet known whether the risk changes with the amount of time elapsed since the initial tamoxifen prescription. This information would be valuable in identifying patients at high risk for DVT/PE.

Methods: The relation between timing of tamoxifen use and venous thromboembolism risk was examined. The study population of 16,289 women was identified from the clinical database of the Danish Breast Cancer Cooperative Group. It included women diagnosed with International Union Against Cancer (UICC) stage I or stage II estrogen receptor-positive breast cancer between 1990 and 2004 at ages 45 to 69 years. Risks, risk ratios (RRs), and crude and adjusted hazards ratios were calculated for each of the first 5 years after breast cancer surgery and then cumulatively over the next 5 years.

Results: The 5-year risk of DVT/PE was 1.2% for women receiving tamoxifen and 0.50% for women not receiving tamoxifen. Women treated with tamoxifen were at a higher risk for DVT/PE during the first 2 years after exposure (RR, 3.5; 95% confidence interval [95% CI], 2.1-6.0). Subsequently, their risk was not found to be substantially increased (RR, 1.5; 95% CI, 0.88-2.5). Older women taking tamoxifen appeared to be at higher risk than younger women during the first 2 years of exposure.

Conclusions: The findings of the current study suggest that the first 2 years after the initiation of tamoxifen therapy may be the most crucial time for monitoring DVT/PE risk, particularly in older women.
2009 American Cancer Society.

So a 240% greater risk, that is very significant IMO. When staring down the barrel of cancer completely understandable, for guys trying to run higher dose test................not so much. Would be interesting to see a DVT/PE study of AI vs SERM vs nothing.
 

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