Muscle mass and test dose

SouthernMuscle · Sep 2, 2021

totalrecomp said:
So a 240% greater risk, that is very significant IMO. When staring down the barrel of cancer completely understandable, for guys trying to run higher dose test................not so much. Would be interesting to see a DVT/PE study of AI vs SERM vs nothing.

Shit i was just looking at one exploring the impact of AI’s on DVT/PE, might be able to find it again but i could swear it said between the two that AI’s are safer risk percentage wise. All ive been able to find on tamoxifen and blood clots regarding CAUSE is that its not fully understood but that the drug itself somehow directly interferes w coagulation putting you in a pro-thrombotic state. How important this actually is would obviously be totally individual and would need to take into account genetic predisposition. I mean hell, taking NSAIDS and being dehydrated put you in a pro-thrombotic state.

Myself i’m paranoid as fuuuck about clots especially since i am a high test + AI + nolva subject. Do what i can to mitigate the risk with the regular supplements and protocols but most recently ive added nattokinase and magnolia extract standardized for honokiol. Thought it was placebo at first but i take them both when i wake up on an empty stomach and wait at least 15min to eat, during that 15min i get suuuuper vascular its crazy, one of them is def doing something good for blood flow. Started both at the same time tho, and im not willing to drop one to figure it out sooooo

luki7788 · Sep 2, 2021

OuchThatHurts said:
I love these threads as well. Should be noted maybe also, the importance of T/E2 vs just T or E2 alone. I consider this very important. And I'm not the first one to show high E2 ranges to be fine but along with corresponding high T range has shown to increase wellbeing and health. For example: TT 1200ng/dL and 55pg/mL E2 = 210:1 ratio (all within perfectly normal range). Or 2400 TT and E2 at 120pg/dL. Sounds crazy right? But try having TT at 2400 and E2 at 30pg. It doesn't work that way.

Which reinforces my theory: get your gyno and mammary glands taken out if you can! Your nipples shouldn't be dictating what you do or how you feel. That's not a bellwether. Not at all.

I have never had problems with gynecomastia but at estro 120 my ankles are knee thick ... for gynecomastia to be the only problem of high estro it would be easy to deal with it but there are many other troublesome sides including fat deposits in places such as the lower back or glutes. So when it comes to bodybuilding, high estro is not good. Remember, bodybuilding has nothing to do with health, so I skip this issue

Kaladryn · Sep 2, 2021

High estrogen increases blood pressure as well.

Remember that "extremes" are always very tempting, but the best answers generally lie somewhere in middle.

LATS · Sep 2, 2021

iron lifter said:
Why was John on nolvadex again?

John didn't like anti es based on their ability to crush lipids and joint pain.. john was more sold on the way nolva dealt with estro by blocking and also nolva had a bit of anti e ability based on its metabolites.. mild but there.. he also liked its ability to raise hdl and give decent cholesterol numbers.. he talked to Mr numerous times about running nolva but I didn't like the blood clotting issue along with it giving " brain fog" to me the one time I did run it..

slesh · Sep 3, 2021

LATS said:
I told John this same thing.. nolva is known for blood clot issues.. john agreed .. but I don't know if he ever came off it.. 40mgs is big dose to be taking that long.. but John really loved nolva..

Why was he on long term Nolva?

maldorf · Sep 3, 2021

LATS said:
John didn't like anti es based on their ability to crush lipids and joint pain.. john was more sold on the way nolva dealt with estro by blocking and also nolva had a bit of anti e ability based on its metabolites.. mild but there.. he also liked its ability to raise hdl and give decent cholesterol numbers.. he talked to Mr numerous times about running nolva but I didn't like the blood clotting issue along with it giving " brain fog" to me the one time I did run it..

Any idea why it caused you brain fog?

LATS · Sep 3, 2021

slesh said:
Why was he on long term Nolva?

That was John's preferred estro protection..

LATS · Sep 3, 2021

maldorf said:
Any idea why it caused you brain fog?

I was not sure at the time.. but the more research I did the more I found side effect of confusion and fog in the literature.. im sure it may be dose dependant.. I took 20 mgs for a couple weeks .. didn't like the feeling.. went to 10 mgs.. still didn't feel " right".. I took it as nolva was not right for me and cut my loses

slesh · Sep 3, 2021

LATS said:
That was John's preferred estro protection..

But was he using it year round on both blasts and cruises or just when he upped the Test passed TRT numbers?

NEMSZ · Sep 3, 2021

slesh said:
But was he using it year round on both blasts and cruises or just when he upped the Test passed TRT numbers?

I believe there’s video of him saying he used it year round, as to my knowledge he would cruise on 300mg Test until competition

totalrecomp · Sep 3, 2021

LATS said:
I was not sure at the time.. but the more research I did the more I found side effect of confusion and fog in the literature.. im sure it may be dose dependant.. I took 20 mgs for a couple weeks .. didn't like the feeling.. went to 10 mgs.. still didn't feel " right".. I took it as nolva was not right for me and cut my loses

My guess: tamoxifen is acting as an antagonist at ER receptors in the brain. We know it's an agonist/antagonist/partial agonist based on where it is binding.

Honestly it would be more surprising if tamoxifen had no effect on the brain/cognition.

Estrogen receptor-alpha mediates the brain antiinflammatory activity of estradiol - PubMed

Beyond the key role in reproductive and cognitive functions, estrogens have been shown to protect against neurodegeneration associated with acute and chronic injuries of the adult brain. Current hypotheses reconcile this activity with a direct effect of 17beta-estradiol (E2) on neurons. Here we...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Estrogen actions throughout the brain - PubMed

Besides affecting the hypothalamus and other brain areas related to reproduction, ovarian steroids have widespread effects throughout the brain, on serotonin pathways, catecholaminergic neurons, and the basal forebrain cholinergic system as well as the hippocampal formation, a brain region...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Jeff_Woods · Sep 3, 2021

I recall a study where 20mg of Nolvadex once a week was just as effective as 20mg of nolva daily. I've tried it and also found this to be true. Just something to consider if you like Nolvadex and wish to possibly mitigate some of the clotting risk associated with it. The poison is in the dose.

Bio · Sep 3, 2021

Jeff_Woods said:
I recall a study where 20mg of Nolvadex once a week was just as effective as 20mg of nolva daily. I've tried it and also found this to be true. Just something to consider if you like Nolvadex and wish to possibly mitigate some of the clotting risk associated with it. The poison is in the dose.

Try to find it and post it up. Was it based on individuals using supraphysiological doses of Androgens?

Jeff_Woods · Sep 3, 2021

Bio said:
Try to find it and post it up. Was it based on individuals using supraphysiological doses of Androgens?

I'll see if I can find it. No it was not bodybuilding related. It was a study discussing the effectiveness of Nolvadex and Raloxifene.

Jeff_Woods · Sep 3, 2021

Here we go, again not used for gyno associated with anabolics on this particular one, but just seeing the possibility is interesting, so for myself, I doubled up, being on over a gram of test, and use 40mg once a week every Monday and it did help shrink the lump I had in there quite a bit. The half life is so long, that once the maximum benefit has been reached, more only contributes to an increase in sides. There are also studies showing that 5mg daily was as effective as 20mg daily after an initial loading phase. Just a thought...

Gynecomastia

Gynecomastia is defined as benign proliferation of glandular breast tissue in men. Physiologic gynecomastia is common in newborns, adolescents, and older men. It is self-limited, but can be treated to minimize emotional distress and physical discomfort. Nonphysiologic gynecomastia may be caused...

www.aafp.org

Q

"Gynecomastia is a common adverse effect of bicalutamide (Casodex) therapy that may prompt some men to discontinue prostate cancer treatment. Tamoxifen has been recommended as a preventive agent for gynecomastia in these patients. A double-blind study of 282 men randomized to receive 20 mg of tamoxifen once per day with bicalutamide or bicalutamide alone found that after six months, gynecomastia and breast pain were significantly reduced in men who received tamoxifen (8.8 versus 96.7 percent in the control group).41 An Italian randomized controlled trial of 80 participants also found that 20 mg of tamoxifen once per week is as effective as 20 mg once per day.42"

LATS · Sep 3, 2021

People need to consider half lives in taking these compounds.. nolva has a extremely long half life.. the accumulated effect is the issue..

Jeff_Woods · Sep 3, 2021

LATS said:
People need to consider half lives in taking these compounds.. nolva has a extremely long half life.. the accumulated effect is the issue..

Precisely!

iron lifter · Sep 3, 2021

wouldn't John now that he had been retired been better off running test at a trt dose and maybe a non aromatizing like masteron at a low dose alongside than running 300mg test and nolvadex?

mslmn · Sep 3, 2021

iron lifter said:
wouldn't John now that he had been retired been better off running test at a trt dose and maybe a non aromatizing like masteron at a low dose alongside than running 300mg test and nolva

Nevermind

OuchThatHurts · Sep 4, 2021

luki7788 said:
I have never had problems with gynecomastia but at estro 120 my ankles are knee thick ... for gynecomastia to be the only problem of high estro it would be easy to deal with it but there are many other troublesome sides including fat deposits in places such as the lower back or glutes. So when it comes to bodybuilding, high estro is not good. Remember, bodybuilding has nothing to do with health, so I skip this issue

At that thickness, that's no longer just estrogen-related water retention but full-blown edema. Could be caused by increased weight, blood volume, venous insufficiency, or CCB induced. It would likely be recommended to you to use graduated compression stockings and maybe angiotensin-converting enzyme inhibitor or an angiotensin-receptor blocker (CCB-induced pedal edema). Not just estrogen reduction. Per healthline:

Symptoms of high estrogen levels in men
Here are some of the main symptoms of high estrogen levels in men:

Infertility. Estrogen is one of the hormones your body uses to produce sperm. High estrogen levels can slow down sperm production and make it harder to create healthy sperm.
Gynecomastia. Increased estrogen can cause more breast tissue to develop than normal. High levels can lead to the development of a condition called gynecomastia. This happens when the amount of breast fat tissue is abnormally high.
Erectile dysfunction (ED). Increased estrogen levels can affect the balance of hormones that are needed to help get an erection and stay erect. This is especially true if you also experience low testosterone.
Slowed growth. Too much estrogen can result in short stature or delayed puberty in boys.
Epiphyseal closure. This can happen in adolescents with high estrogen, causing boys to have short stature.