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my blood work after a decade of anabolics

High ferrtin can also be the result of acute inflammations, hepatitis, megaloblastic and hemolytic anemias, alcoholism, cancer, uremia, collagen diseases, and liver diseases.

BMJ
 
I agree the likely cause is iron overload. You want to measure transferrin saturation if he has not ordered it already. Threshold for hemochromatosis is a transferrin saturation of > 50%, with 60% or greater being very specific. Couple this with ferritin levels greater than 300-350 and liver enzyme elevation and you have a pretty definitive diagnosis of hemochromatosis. This is of course a genetic disorder and has nothing to do with your use of AAS. I will actually be surprised if your transferrin sat is not elevated. Its possible that there are other causes for your high ferritin, but @ 884 these things become highly improbable.

I have no idea why people are talking about creatinine, there is no issue there. I had to covert it b/c you have those quirky ass metric measures (are you in the U.S.?), but it is only 1.2 mg/dl Your CKs are from training obviously so also normal. Likely you will have serial/scheduled phlebotomy here shortly as someone else mentioned.

Rex.

Great post Rex!
 
damn dante, i don't know what doctors you guys go to but I don't believe there is a doctor in the whole state of ky that will prescribe 300mg/wk of test as HRT. :eek:

now if this is some self medicated shit you guys are talking about then yes lets call it a low dose of test and not HRT! as you are not getting your natural test checked and taking a dosage to bring that into "normal" range. you are just taking what you call a low dose of test. he specifically said HRT dose, so i assumed he was going through a qualified medical professional.

You could very well be right....I assumed that he was talking about just doing things "himself" and just kind of said HRT in a context compared to what he was doing test wise...out here in california and in vegas and in arizona....doctors are a little more liberal and some will prescribe 200mg a week (some...not all)...especially vegas
 
200mg cyp a week put me at 1500 test level.......


I have done research on test levels after hrt shots also. 24 hours post inject with 250 mgs I was at 1450. 5 days post inject was 922. 8 days was 605, 11 days 340. My results are very similar to friends that have tracked their levels as well. Based on what I am seeing 200 mgs week is probably a good hrt dose. I know some people feel this is high for true hrt, but there could be differences on how individuals break down the test? I have heard of others say that 100 mgs puts them at the top 20%, but I would be interested to see how long after the injection those results are from. Others I know stay on 30 mgs week and barely get to 600, but again, I would be curios to know if that is drawing blood a week after the shot , 3 days or whatever?.. Also other factors like age, previous usage history and other chems like hcg, clomid. I have also read some antiaging experts are saying that being at around 1200 is optimal for overall health. I am interested in what others opinions are?
 
yeah. anything more than a level of around 800 is out of range.


I think it depends on the lab used. I have had blood test levels checked and sometimes the lad normal range is 250-820 while other times the lab range was 250-1100. My last three tests I came back at 835, 950 and 802. Everything was fine blood work . My hematocrit is always between 43-46. I read your story and it is a definite reminder to anyone on test to monitor health closely, but some people don't seem to have the negative sides you did. My cholesterol and blood pressure have improved since going on hrt 3 years ago.
 
I have done research on test levels after hrt shots also. 24 hours post inject with 250 mgs I was at 1450. 5 days post inject was 922. 8 days was 605, 11 days 340. My results are very similar to friends that have tracked their levels as well. Based on what I am seeing 200 mgs week is probably a good hrt dose. I know some people feel this is high for true hrt, but there could be differences on how individuals break down the test? I have heard of others say that 100 mgs puts them at the top 20%, but I would be interested to see how long after the injection those results are from. Others I know stay on 30 mgs week and barely get to 600, but again, I would be curios to know if that is drawing blood a week after the shot , 3 days or whatever?.. Also other factors like age, previous usage history and other chems like hcg, clomid. I have also read some antiaging experts are saying that being at around 1200 is optimal for overall health. I am interested in what others opinions are?

Ive also read of those opinions and its interesting.

There are 2 ways physicians are looking at this

1) get them into normal range...oh they are at 426...good my job is done (which i dont know if that is neccesarily the most beneficial for the patient)
2) get them into high optimal range or slightly over...850-1200.
 
Ive also read of those opinions and its interesting.

There are 2 ways physicians are looking at this

1) get them into normal range...oh they are at 426...good my job is done (which i dont know if that is neccesarily the most beneficial for the patient)
2) get them into high optimal range or slightly over...850-1200.

I personally appreciate the doctors that strive for optimal outcome vs the "good enough" train of thought. Just because it lands in the range does not make it the best fit for the patient.
 
I personally appreciate the doctors that strive for optimal outcome vs the "good enough" train of thought. Just because it lands in the range does not make it the best fit for the patient.

Yeah, I think the new endo I have would be happy if my test is 500 or so. I know I personally feel like crap that low. My old endo listend to me and how I felt, this new guy is all about numbers and what's "normal".
 
My fathers endo has him on 125mg cyp and his levels were 1200 range 220-850 and the endo said nothing unhealthy at all abou that. Said its actually benefitial as long as estrogen isnt high and his lipids and hematocrit are in range.
 
Im wondering though how much a phlebotomy would help in this situation since his HGB is normal. If they take too much blood then his HGB will drop too low and he will be anemic?

Frequent phlebotomy could cause symptoms of anemia. Especially at first, but the body will step up production to compensate. Most males will easily tolerate removal of 1 unit per week. Many will tolerate removal of 2 units per week but this is a pain in the ass. You depend on depletion of the blood supply obviously in order to deplete Fe. The body must increase blood production which in turns causes Fe stores to be depleted. You do not want HGB & HCT to recover between phlebotomies in initial treatment. Most people with hemochromatosis experiencing weakness, fatigue and joint pain feel much better after initiating therapeutic phlebotomy.

The goal of therapy is ferritin < 50, with some specialists setting a goal of 20 and a transferrin sat < 50%. There will be cutoffs, meaning if the patient's HGB is below a certain level after spot check they will not be phlebotomized that day. For those who can't tolerate phlebotomy for one reason or another (fairly rare) there are chelation agents (Desferal). But this is a real pain in the ass and expensive. It could take a lot of phlebotomy obviously to lower ferritin from almost 900 to 50. I have heard EPO proposed to offset anemia if it arises and is symptomatic but have never actually seen it and it would definitely be an extreme case.

Rex.
 
Actually thats your CREATININE level not creatine...it measures among other things msucle cell damage and ANYONE that is in bodybuilding or powerlifting will generally appear at least slightly elevated because of the constant damage and turnover of the muscle cells. Cutting back on creatine intake is not goign to do anything at all...i would suggest a new doctor.

You know I think this guy was only trying to express his experience like anyone else on this board. Seeing your input to someone else’s actual occurrences makes me wonder who the “F” are you to dispute their post. You’re not a doctor I bet, but certainly show your intelligence when you try to spell muscle. So who gave you the right to contradict someone’s experience? Let’s keep these post to a positive and learn from those that have true life experiences with the issue they write about. Negative feedback should always be frowned upon.:star:wars
 
You know I think this guy was only trying to express his experience like anyone else on this board. Seeing your input to someone else’s actual occurrences makes me wonder who the “F” are you to dispute their post. You’re not a doctor I bet, but certainly show your intelligence when you try to spell muscle. So who gave you the right to contradict someone’s experience? Let’s keep these post to a positive and learn from those that have true life experiences with the issue they write about. Negative feedback should always be frowned upon.:star:wars

Morepain is a good dude, assuming its the same guy from back in the old meso and renegade days. Probably been around WAY longer than you. He was not discounting anyone's "experience," he was merely stating facts. Its well proven that creatine will not adversely affect creatinine levels. His creatinine was elevated due to protein intake, which he lowered. Stopping creatine had nothing to do with it. Not to mention I guarantee you his creatinine level was no higher than 1.5 or so. Thus not actually a reason for concern except that he was dealing with a doctor who is uneducated in dealing with "athletes." Not to mention the whole time he was saying creatine, when he actually meant creatinine, but didn't know that's what he meant. :D Basically he had an idiot doctor who thought protein and creatine were affecting his renal function. So his whole "experience" you are so concerned about discounting was a complete waste of time and money based upon ignorance.

Rex.

The effect of creatine intake on renal function.
Pline KA, Smith CL.

College of Pharmacy, Ferris State University, Big Rapids, MI, USA.

Following acute ingestion (4-5 days) of large amounts of creatine, creatinine concentrations increased slightly, but not to a clinically significant concentration. Creatinine is also only minimally affected by longer creatine supplementation (up to 5.6 y). CONCLUSIONS: Creatine supplementation minimally impacts creatinine concentrations and renal function in young healthy adults. Although creatinine concentrations may increase after long periods of creatine supplementation, the increase is extremely limited.
 
Rex, if and when you get time....please post more on the board!!!:cool:

Unleash the kracken of information you possess:D


BMJ
 
Morepain is a good dude, assuming its the same guy from back in the old meso and renegade days. Probably been around WAY longer than you. He was not discounting anyone's "experience," he was merely stating facts. Its well proven that creatine will not adversely affect creatinine levels. His creatinine was elevated due to protein intake, which he lowered. Stopping creatine had nothing to do with it. Not to mention I guarantee you his creatinine level was no higher than 1.5 or so. Thus not actually a reason for concern except that he was dealing with a doctor who is uneducated in dealing with "athletes." Not to mention the whole time he was saying creatine, when he actually meant creatinine, but didn't know that's what he meant. :D Basically he had an idiot doctor who thought protein and creatine were affecting his renal function. So his whole "experience" you are so concerned about discounting was a complete waste of time and money based upon ignorance.

Rex.

The effect of creatine intake on renal function.
Pline KA, Smith CL.

College of Pharmacy, Ferris State University, Big Rapids, MI, USA.

Following acute ingestion (4-5 days) of large amounts of creatine, creatinine concentrations increased slightly, but not to a clinically significant concentration. Creatinine is also only minimally affected by longer creatine supplementation (up to 5.6 y). CONCLUSIONS: Creatine supplementation minimally impacts creatinine concentrations and renal function in young healthy adults. Although creatinine concentrations may increase after long periods of creatine supplementation, the increase is extremely limited.
EXCELLENT POST! :lightbulb:
 
Frequent phlebotomy could cause symptoms of anemia. Especially at first, but the body will step up production to compensate. Most males will easily tolerate removal of 1 unit per week. Many will tolerate removal of 2 units per week but this is a pain in the ass. You depend on depletion of the blood supply obviously in order to deplete Fe. The body must increase blood production which in turns causes Fe stores to be depleted. You do not want HGB & HCT to recover between phlebotomies in initial treatment. Most people with hemochromatosis experiencing weakness, fatigue and joint pain feel much better after initiating therapeutic phlebotomy.

The goal of therapy is ferritin < 50, with some specialists setting a goal of 20 and a transferrin sat < 50%. There will be cutoffs, meaning if the patient's HGB is below a certain level after spot check they will not be phlebotomized that day. For those who can't tolerate phlebotomy for one reason or another (fairly rare) there are chelation agents (Desferal). But this is a real pain in the ass and expensive. It could take a lot of phlebotomy obviously to lower ferritin from almost 900 to 50. I have heard EPO proposed to offset anemia if it arises and is symptomatic but have never actually seen it and it would definitely be an extreme case.

Rex.

thanks for the info. Ive had to go in for the past 2 months or so and have phlebotomies because my hemoglobin got up to almost 20! They took 500 ml every 2 weeks and Im now down to a HGB of 15.6 and feel good.
 
Do you know what sucks? I mean royally sucks...

I was going to come on here today and i was going to relay a situation involving someone (I sure as hell aint going to say pro or amateur or the guessing game starts again) in the sport regarding RBC's, hemochromatosis/iron overload/ TRT/HRT / hematocrit-hemoglobin....and it would be very interesting to everyone I feel and people could learn from it.....he gave me the ok late yesterday to go ahead and talk about it...but today he sends me an email with reservations of "those getbig guys are going to read what you say and twist things around and I'll never hear the end of it, I'd rather you not say anything".....so I cannot relay that story.
Yesterday I put up a situation about a unnamed pro with periphial edema and how I feel it is going to create a dire health episode if he doesnt take control of things quickly. I wanted to speak in general terms with there being 400 pro's out there but a certain guy wouldnt have it....he needed the excitement to "be the guy who names the pro"....not only on this board but another board now....he gets to stay anonymous while i no doubt will get crap for it. And Im still getting PM's from this guy about why he had a right to do it. Ridiculous.
I am getting to the point my hands are tied now....I cant relay certain points to people because people in bodybuilding need to know the gossip part of it or their day is ruined---its frustrating as all hell---but im finding more and more (especially after the Cutler offseason to contest weight thread where Bboy and I caught alot of shit) and the edema thread yesterday and this above....that I have been deleting alot of posts Ive been writing.
Sorry bout the rant.
 
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thanks for the info. Ive had to go in for the past 2 months or so and have phlebotomies because my hemoglobin got up to almost 20! They took 500 ml every 2 weeks and Im now down to a HGB of 15.6 and feel good.

For some reason ive noticed when guys have a really high HGB and donate till it gets in range, it usually stays in range regaurdless of the anabolics they are on. Its almost as if you only need to do a good cleansing of blood once and then just maintain after that.
 
I have done research on test levels after hrt shots also. 24 hours post inject with 250 mgs I was at 1450. 5 days post inject was 922. 8 days was 605, 11 days 340. My results are very similar to friends that have tracked their levels as well. Based on what I am seeing 200 mgs week is probably a good hrt dose. I know some people feel this is high for true hrt, but there could be differences on how individuals break down the test? I have heard of others say that 100 mgs puts them at the top 20%, but I would be interested to see how long after the injection those results are from. Others I know stay on 30 mgs week and barely get to 600, but again, I would be curios to know if that is drawing blood a week after the shot , 3 days or whatever?.. Also other factors like age, previous usage history and other chems like hcg, clomid. I have also read some antiaging experts are saying that being at around 1200 is optimal for overall health. I am interested in what others opinions are?

this was after 9months on 200mg cyp. it was one week after the last shot. Cyp's half life is pretty long, like 10 days so it builds up a lot over time
 
Just so you know, 300 mg/wk is nowhere near HRT dose. HRT dose is going to be between 100 and 150 mg/wk, thats it. 300mg/wk is way supraphysiological and would put you at 2x the normal test level or more. Not the best health decision.

200mg cyp a week put me at 1500 test level.......

damn bro, im glad you said this, I was just going to keep quiet as people think im mr. anti-steroid or something??? but that is not HRT dose, but i see a lot of people thinking it is. hell some people think 500mgs is HRT dose :eek: my doc told me the same thing as what you posted, that if she ever would put me on HRT therapy that it would be probably anywhere between 100-150mg/wk. and that should put me in the "normal" range.

yeah. anything more than a level of around 800 is out of range.

depends on the lab used..some labs norm goes to about 1100

I think it depends on the lab used. I have had blood test levels checked and sometimes the lad normal range is 250-820 while other times the lab range was 250-1100. My last three tests I came back at 835, 950 and 802. Everything was fine blood work . My hematocrit is always between 43-46. I read your story and it is a definite reminder to anyone on test to monitor health closely, but some people don't seem to have the negative sides you did. My cholesterol and blood pressure have improved since going on hrt 3 years ago.

You guys should keep in mind that everyone is different...I was on 300mg a week (with a prescription) and my levels were 1150...I personally chose to drop it to 200 for a while. For these people getting test levels on 200mg etc, when are you having the draws performed...the day after you inject?! Of course it's gonna be sky high. My doc said as long as estro is controlled and HGB/HCT are in order, no problem
 
a lot of replies and concerns and questions and all feedback is good i think. i'll try to address everyone i apologise if i leave out or miss a question or don't answer a concern someone may have.

the main topic of discussion is the dose i chose for HRT, and why it's so high. i know it's too high to be an actual HRT dose as prescribed by a physician. as far as test levels you guys know about the scientific end of all that- upper ends and lower ends etc. here's why i chose 300mg/wk...

i just came off more than a decade of anabolics for the most part in the 2g club for a lot of it. i am slowly weaning myself of big dosages- i figured cutting my totals down to almost a 10th of what they once were is a start, then i'd see how i feel a few months from now. if i liked what was happening, and my blood work is ok after i get my iron issues sorted out, then i'll decide if i want to drop it further or keep my HRT there. i used HRT as an expression in that i dont even plan on not taking test unless my blood work comes back and says i need to stop- it is actual hormone replacement therapy in that regard. i like how i feel when i'm on test. it elevates my mood, it keeps my feeling younger along side the low dose GH i am running. the last thing i wanted to do was drop down to 100-150mg/a wk and suffer mentally- thats a huge part of it too. if i'm healthy and my prostate is healthy and i feel good mentally /physically then i'm good with that, 300 it is until i figure out whats going on in here and once i acclimate to it (the amount) then i'll re evaluate my condition and my goals.

no, i have yet to disclose my use to my doctor. part of this is because i dont want him pointing the finger at something in my blood work and saying 'AH HA!' its the steroid use at fault for what we're seeing and stop there and not look at other possibilities. i'd rather exhaust all other possibilities and then offer that up as a possible explanation, you see? sooner or later i will disclose everything to him- this past appointment was only our third date (he's a new family doctor) and i'm not about to give it up that easy. heh. but in the interests of my health and well being i am going to tell him everything sooner than later. possibly when we meet to discuss this round of blood work.

i went for more blood work today and have an ultra sound scheduled for the 29th to check out my liver. i noticed he requested total iron serum levels on my sheet, amongst a bunch of other abbreviations in doctors chicken scratch that im amazed anyone can read. i should have the results back and post them up be mid to end of next week.

as it stands, i am not overly frightened of what results may come from this last work up. i am fairly confident my liver enzymes have lowered further by now, and if they havent then im in big trouble in that there is something a lot more serious than just coming off some winny and var affecting the elevations we are seeing. THAT's what frightens me. from what i'm reading here the iron issues are not threatening if we deal with the situation now. truthfully its the liver that has me the most concerned- i think the doc may have biased me somewhat as when i pressed him for layman's terms for the doctors speak he was giving me and what it all meant, his primary concern seemed to be the liver enzyme elevations.

so, there we have it. i'm going to request what my total test serum levels are too just to see what range i am in as well to satisfy my own curiosity about where they are in relation to how i feel now mentally and physically which overall is pretty damn good.

i'll keep you all posted. thanks for taking the time to give your input and discuss this.
 
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