My Thoughts On Training

[Thunder46]

Great read. But I think everyone has to fing what works for him best and I can only speak what works best for myself but not other. I'm tall with long limbs ecto who has hard time putting on mass and used to train with very heavy weights in the past - squats with 455 and bench press with 375 (that's very heavy for me) fo reps, every set (did 9-12 sets per bp) to failure, every workout no delaods no lighter training sessions etc and I grew a little bit but was flat no matter how much I ate (too much sets to failure, too much weight on the bars) switched to lower volume DC training - grow a lot better but started to have joint problems and with rest pause on every set 3-4 times per week was too much for my CNS too...now I'm training with a lot higher volume 16-20 sets per body part sometimes few times per week, but only 3-4 sets are to failure or very close to failure with as much as I can use, other than that - few reps shy from failure with moderate wights kinda "feeling" sets and I've found this works best for me, I grow a lot better, recover a lot better and I'm a lot fuller and bigger on lower dosages. this training style keep me very lean too wothout minimal to none cardio

I agree more with you tr my workouts are similar to yours, DC training killed my joints and I have found for me that for leg developement high volume works best. And as far as training body parts 2 x wk with the job I have I would never recover so thats a individual thing

 

[tr]

That brings up a good point. I think your style of training, which is similar to mine, works for us taller and especially older guys. I strongly believe staying healthy and being consistent is the key to long term gains.

Truth. Actually I've started adding more and more volume after reading your logs and Magnums thoughts which made a lot of sense for me. Stimulate not annihilate as Lee Haney said. And what's volume? Total sets or total reps or sets to failure or rest pause sets etc...Ronnie Coleman trains high volume (as per say) 3-4 sets 3-4 exercises per bp 2x times weekly but what really he is doing - stop way before failure on the first sets and goes to failure (and not even every time) on his last set...that's only 3-4 failure sets per body part...DC training is low volume but if somone squats 400+ pounds for 12 reps he does a lot of warm up sets...Phil Hernon training is supposed to be low volume too, but as he said he can squat 1/2 hour or more (lots of sets) before he reaches his main working sets

 

[tri-terror]

tr, just curious here, do you think you put on more mass since switching to the higher volume stuff, or you maybe experiencing more sarcoplasmic hypertrophy now on top of the bigger fibers you built with the heavy training, now giving you a full "3D" look?
Or do you feel that just overall you have put on more LBM with the higher volume?

I certainly hear you with the joints stuff. Mine are also pretty bad, especially my elbows. So I try and take my failure points up a few reps on days that I'm feeling sore. So instead of doing my "heavy" set to failure at 6 reps, I may do 10 or 12 instead.

And yeah if you coun't the "warm up" sets in DC or Hernon's style you are indeed doing a lot more sets. Its really just a matter of do you count them or not I guess. It drives my wife crazy when she trains with me because I'll tell her we are going to do three sets, and I'm just getting done warming up and she's like "ok we are done now right?", and I tell her those were warm ups and don't count and she's like WTF!

 

[tri-terror]

Here is a Gironda routine posted on another board(is this you zachbean?)
10 x 10, 8 x 8, 6 x 6 and 15 x 4 training systems

Vince believed growth was primarily achieved by completing more and more work in the same amount of time.
Vince use all the above rep schemes with only one exercise performed per body part. he would start you at 1 minute rest between sets with the goal of getting your rest down to 30 seconds between sets. (vinces best pupils only used 15 seconds rest). It seems to be that many these days say that "overtraining" doe not exist. Vince disagreed and called it "overtonis". In fact, Vince found that the above rep schemes often led to "overtonis" in many of his trainees when utilizing the above rep schemes for every body part and therefore would often use these rep schemes to bring up one lagging body part at a time.
So lets say its chest and back day. If the goal was a stronger chest vince might have you do 15x 4 on neck press and then 3-4 exercises for you back using his popular 10, 8, 6, 15 rep scheme. Which brings us to the next system

10, 8, 6, 15 ROUTINE

This is one of vinces more popular routine and he used it for mass gains. Vince believed that 12 sets is the MAX a muscle group could handle and even that performed for to long would lead to overtonis. I have done this routine and really like it and always felt like I was making progress when implementing it. I think because it is focused on making steady strength gains with low volume high frequency.
I believe in the original manual vince laid the routine out like this:

workout 1 - Upper body (chest, back, arms and delts)
workout 2 - lower body (quads, hams, calves and abs)

monday - upper body
tuesday - lower body
wedesday - upper
thurday - lower
friday - upper

on the following monday you pickup with lower body and continue in this fashion for 4-6 weeks( vince did give the option of training 6 days a week with this routine also)

-only ONE exercise per muscle group. you should select mass building exercises. Vince stated in "the wild physique the Larry scott would alternate between neck presses and gironda dips for his chest and nothing else.
The beauty of this program is in the rep scheme though.....this is KEY

for whatever exercises you choose to do for each body part, you will do them in this fashion.

1st select a weight that you can perform a 6 rep max with

set 1.........10 reps with 50% of 6 rep max
set2..........8 reps with 75% of 6 rep max
set3..........6 reps with 100% of max
set 4.........15 reps with 35% of 6 rep max

rest as little as possible but make sure your rested enough to really hit that 3rd set with max intensity.
when you are able to perform 12 reps with your six rep max increase the weight for that exercise so that you are once again using a 6 rep max. and adjust percentages accordingly.

I hope I'm explaining this well and that it makes since to readers.

heres an example using a guy that has a 300lb max bench press for 6 reps

set 1. 150 x10
set 2. 225 x 8
set 3 300 x 6(and always do as many reps on this set as you can)
set 4 105 x 15(pump set)

Variation on 10, 8, 6, 15 program
Palmeiri talks about how sometimes vince would might do 3 lower body days in a row followed by 2-3 upper body days in a row for a couple weeks just to shock the muscles.....I never tried that but I bet it's tough

 

[tri-terror]

A Muscle Has 4 Sides

Zach, I think this is the muscle has 4 sides you posted. I would still really like to hear more about this and some of Vince's diets if you can find the time to post it.



day 1 back, chest and delt

chest- giant set(rest about 1 minute most between sets)
gillotine bench press 1x 12 reps
incline db press 1x 12 reps
gironda dips 1x 12 reps
incline flyes 1x 12 reps
rest 3-5 min

back giant set
low pulley row 1x 12
reeves alternates rowing 1x 12(great exercise....it's bent over alternate db rowing with elbows high 12 reps each arm....crazy pump across upper back)
low pulley row from racing position 1x 12
2 arm db row 1x12

shoulders -giant set(I cant remember the delt exercises exactly but something like this)
scott press 1x 12
side laterals 1x 12
bent over laterals 1 x 12
military press front to back 1 x12

you do this workout then 4-8 hours later come back to the gym and do the rotation again. If you can't do 2 a days then you go through two rotations in the same workout.....I did it 2 x per day and the results were great. vince really knew what exercises make the physique look nice. Oh and you training 6 days a week with only sunday off.

nutrition -6 eggs blended in 8 oz half and half every 3 hours to keep positive nitrogen balance

This is considered his mass building routine



EDIT:
found a great link to an article that describes a lot in detail
**broken link removed**

 

[tr]

tr, just curious here, do you think you put on more mass since switching to the higher volume stuff, or you maybe experiencing more sarcoplasmic hypertrophy now on top of the bigger fibers you built with the heavy training, now giving you a full "3D" look?
Or do you feel that just overall you have put on more LBM with the higher volume?

I certainly hear you with the joints stuff. Mine are also pretty bad, especially my elbows. So I try and take my failure points up a few reps on days that I'm feeling sore. So instead of doing my "heavy" set to failure at 6 reps, I may do 10 or 12 instead.

And yeah if you coun't the "warm up" sets in DC or Hernon's style you are indeed doing a lot more sets. Its really just a matter of do you count them or not I guess. It drives my wife crazy when she trains with me because I'll tell her we are going to do three sets, and I'm just getting done warming up and she's like "ok we are done now right?", and I tell her those were warm ups and don't count and she's like WTF!

It's very hard to say, of course I'm not significally bigger, but I weight the same and I'm much much leaner look more like a bodybuilder, rounder now than in the past, but only on 1/5 dosages I took previouslly, so I am assuming if I would up the dosages I would be a lot bigger. But I've started using tren, hgh and peptides past few years so this I think adds fuller look more than training style

as for warm up/working sets...I do more total sets than in the past but less failure sets - this works a lot better for me, keeps my CNS fresh. I still try to do basic exercises (usually 1 ex per body part) with as much weight as I can 1 rep shy or to failure and add 2-3 more of feel/pumping the blood in to the muscle/perfect form exercises