My Thoughts On Training

[zachbean79]

Funny you mentioned squats Tri because I never stopped doing them either. However, I now squat with the bar high on traps now and go to parallel. I used to squat like Mike o'hearn(not that heavy though lol) with the bar low on traps, legs wide and chest winding up between your knees at the bottom.
I also like doing hacks in a smith like you descibed.....although I just put my feet further in front of me and keep my feet close together to really feel it in the lower out quads.

great thread man.....I love training talk

 

[Simpllyhuge]

Your describing a low bar squat vs now high bar squat.

 

[zachbean79]

Let me elaborate on the "mind muscle" thing a little bit. I've tried that way, where you really concentrate on feeling the muscle being worked. Slow negatives, really feel the "squeeze" at the top of the concentric, perfect form etc. It always gave me a good "burn", but I honestly don't think it helped build any muscle and it was REALLY hard to increase weight with that.

Let me give you an example: you are incline benching. Coming off of a cruise or just getting on cycle and you are really getting after it.6 weeks in you are tearing the shit out of 255 lbs. Nice slow reps, really feeling the burn. Over the course of another 6 weeks you get that up to 285lbs but you kind of stall out there.
Compare that with doing the same incline bench but not letting the bar touch your chest, and not locking out. Instead of focusing on your chest stretching and contracting, you focus on moving the weight without any hitches nice and smooth for 6 to 9 reps on your heavy set. I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that most of us will move more weight, maybe get to 315 instead of 285 in the above example, and best part your chest will be just as sore
Basically I've found by not going after "mind muscle connection" during the set still allows me to feel "it" in the muscle I want to AFTER the set.

Again, please feel free to disagree, but this is something that I personally feel pretty strongly about. It's only one mans experience so take it as you will.
maybe "bullshit" is too strong of a word, but I wanted to really grab peoples attention and get them to think about it. Feeling the muscle work is all well and good, but not at the expense of progression.

tri.......do you feel this style of repping is easier on the joints and tendons? It seems it would be and as I age(just turned 33) avoiding injuries is key.
currently recovering from rotator cuff surgery(horrible) wich I tore doing inclines to the upper neck with elbows flared......funny cause I hadn't done bb incline in like three years but I decided to add it in and was making good progress till I tore my supraspinatus at the bottom of the rep

 

[zachbean79]

Your describing a low bar squat vs now high bar squat.

That's correct......guess I could have just said that

 

[zachbean79]

Another part I wanted to ad before the initial post got too long was a list of exercises I feel are the most beneficial. The last couple posts got me thinking about it again so here goes:
Chest:
Decline bench, neck press, gironda dips, low incline DB or smith bench.

Back:
Neutral grip shoulder width chins/pulldowns, the hammer strength pulldown machine like Dorian used in blood and guts, 2 hand DB rows, heavy yates rows, rack deads with a shrug at the top.

Delts:
Seated DB press, standing military press, heavy lateral raises with partials.

Triceps:
Dips, close grip bench press, and one exception to my no isolation rule is reverse grip cable extension as a finisher.

Biceps:
Hammer curls, incline DB curls, machine preacher curls, barbell drag curls

Quads/hammies:
Squats(with constant tension), hack squats, sissy squats, stiff leg deads, lying leg curls, seated leg curls.

Calves:
any kind of calf raise can work but you have to do as much weight as you can for a lot of reps. I always shoot for 20.
A really good exercise is to load the smith machine up with plates and do calf raises with out the stretch and vary your foot position from set to set. Try to do one set with your toes pointed out to the sides like you are going to do a plie(ballet).

You and I use alot of the same exercises.
what do you think of rope face pulls with regular and pronated grip for rear delts? these brought mine up alot and also helped strengthen my external rotators(although appearently not enough lol)

 

[flexdurden]

Let me elaborate on the "mind muscle" thing a little bit. I've tried that way, where you really concentrate on feeling the muscle being worked. Slow negatives, really feel the "squeeze" at the top of the concentric, perfect form etc. It always gave me a good "burn", but I honestly don't think it helped build any muscle and it was REALLY hard to increase weight with that.

Let me give you an example: you are incline benching. Coming off of a cruise or just getting on cycle and you are really getting after it.6 weeks in you are tearing the shit out of 255 lbs. Nice slow reps, really feeling the burn. Over the course of another 6 weeks you get that up to 285lbs but you kind of stall out there.
Compare that with doing the same incline bench but not letting the bar touch your chest, and not locking out. Instead of focusing on your chest stretching and contracting, you focus on moving the weight without any hitches nice and smooth for 6 to 9 reps on your heavy set. I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that most of us will move more weight, maybe get to 315 instead of 285 in the above example, and best part your chest will be just as sore
Basically I've found by not going after "mind muscle connection" during the set still allows me to feel "it" in the muscle I want to AFTER the set.

Again, please feel free to disagree, but this is something that I personally feel pretty strongly about. It's only one mans experience so take it as you will.
maybe "bullshit" is too strong of a word, but I wanted to really grab peoples attention and get them to think about it. Feeling the muscle work is all well and good, but not at the expense of progression.

When looking at hypertrophy, one thing that has been studied a decent amount is the effect of the eccentric portion of an exercise on eliciting greater exercise induced muscle damage, which in turn increases muscle protein sysnthesis (given the proper diet) and thus increased hypertrophic development.

How one does this is up to them, but in any case, performing exercises with a greater emphsis on the eccentric contraction will lead to greater gains in hypertrophy. You can overload the negative with, as you state, moving more weight with constant tension on the chest (not locking out). Along this point, if you use more weight, just as you say in you example above, and take the same amount of time performing the eccentric portion of the lift, would you not generate greater exercise induced muscle damage (if the hypothesis holds true)?

There is more than one way to skin a cat and tons of ways to generate a similar effect, but you need to feel the muscle in order for them to work.

Just my $0.02....

 

[rutger177]

Thanks for taking the time to post this. It's always interesting to read others training methods and history.

 

[Queefer]

Look at you Tri, getting all intellectual and stuff. You have definetely been doing a lot of brainstorming and thinking about your training..If you have those thoughts now, just think in ten more years how you will feel. I wonder if it will be the same or you'll change your thinking process. My training has evolved over the years as I've gotten bigger, started competing, and progressed in my usage. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with the board.

 

[tri-terror]

You and I use alot of the same exercises.
what do you think of rope face pulls with regular and pronated grip for rear delts? these brought mine up alot and also helped strengthen my external rotators(although appearently not enough lol)

You know, its interesting that you bring this up, I think you and I have a lot in common. For a few years I didn't even train rear delts directly, and I feel they have suffered for it. For one thing my front delts are a standout bodypart and so for my rears to be behind at all is readily apparent in a RDB. Anyhow, I've been beginning my shoulder training with a rear delt exercise and have been very recently thinking about the face pulls. I've never done them before, but I think they could be a very good addition. I'm going to do some more research on how to do them correctly and incorporate them. I'll let you know what I think.

When looking at hypertrophy, one thing that has been studied a decent amount is the effect of the eccentric portion of an exercise on eliciting greater exercise induced muscle damage, which in turn increases muscle protein sysnthesis (given the proper diet) and thus increased hypertrophic development.

How one does this is up to them, but in any case, performing exercises with a greater emphsis on the eccentric contraction will lead to greater gains in hypertrophy. You can overload the negative with, as you state, moving more weight with constant tension on the chest (not locking out). Along this point, if you use more weight, just as you say in you example above, and take the same amount of time performing the eccentric portion of the lift, would you not generate greater exercise induced muscle damage (if the hypothesis holds true)?

There is more than one way to skin a cat and tons of ways to generate a similar effect, but you need to feel the muscle in order for them to work.

Just my $0.02....

I agree with you that the eccentric is important. I feel that by controlling the weight and having a smooth cadence within my ROM does in fact accentuate the eccentric, at least a little. I've just never been one for counting during a rep, I just tend to be instinctual and do what feels best. I know a lot of guys promote this, biggest among them is probably DC, but I just haven't "felt" it when I tried it. Certainly nothing wrong with training this way, it is a little different than the whole mind muscle thing though too.
I will say this, I DO incorporate some forced negatives from time to time when I have a good spotter around. That is an invaluable intensity technique.

Look at you Tri, getting all intellectual and stuff. You have definetely been doing a lot of brainstorming and thinking about your training..If you have those thoughts now, just think in ten more years how you will feel. I wonder if it will be the same or you'll change your thinking process. My training has evolved over the years as I've gotten bigger, started competing, and progressed in my usage. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with the board.

Haha man, I don't know about intellectual! I wonder too how I will feel in ten years. I'll be in my 40's and hopefully still healthy and still in the game. maybe not competing or anything but I still want to be training and be a decent size. I could see myself using a lot less failure training and much more Gironda type stuff in a few years. I feel like what I'm doing now is helping put the size on that I desperately need, but I think I can maintain and perhaps have a better look later on with a different style.

Thanks everybody for your comments good bad or otherwise in the thread and keep em coming.

 

[Chode Logan]

Let me elaborate on the "mind muscle" thing a little bit. I've tried that way, where you really concentrate on feeling the muscle being worked. Slow negatives, really feel the "squeeze" at the top of the concentric, perfect form etc. It always gave me a good "burn", but I honestly don't think it helped build any muscle and it was REALLY hard to increase weight with that.

Let me give you an example: you are incline benching. Coming off of a cruise or just getting on cycle and you are really getting after it.6 weeks in you are tearing the shit out of 255 lbs. Nice slow reps, really feeling the burn. Over the course of another 6 weeks you get that up to 285lbs but you kind of stall out there.
Compare that with doing the same incline bench but not letting the bar touch your chest, and not locking out. Instead of focusing on your chest stretching and contracting, you focus on moving the weight without any hitches nice and smooth for 6 to 9 reps on your heavy set. I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that most of us will move more weight, maybe get to 315 instead of 285 in the above example, and best part your chest will be just as sore
Basically I've found by not going after "mind muscle connection" during the set still allows me to feel "it" in the muscle I want to AFTER the set.

Again, please feel free to disagree, but this is something that I personally feel pretty strongly about. It's only one mans experience so take it as you will.
maybe "bullshit" is too strong of a word, but I wanted to really grab peoples attention and get them to think about it. Feeling the muscle work is all well and good, but not at the expense of progression.

Well I think you might just be using different terms..."mind muscle connection" to me has absolutely nothing to do with slow reps or squeezing. I think slow reps and squeezing is a good way to start out lifting weights to DEVELOP the connection. The whole purpose is to have that mind/muscle connection so that you can feel the muscle WHILE doing heavy weight and constant tension exercises...to me it has absolutely nothing to do with rep speed. 3/4 reps at a good pace with heavy weight is a perfect example of utilizing the mind muscle connection properly, in my opinion. Once you have that awareness, it is present in all your lifts (well, hopefully).


So to an extent, I completely agree with you. The super slow strict lighter movements no longer give me huge gains, but being mentally present IN the muscle while repping away on heavier weight does...

 

[tri-terror]

Well I think you might just be using different terms..."mind muscle connection" to me has absolutely nothing to do with slow reps or squeezing. I think slow reps and squeezing is a good way to start out lifting weights to DEVELOP the connection. The whole purpose is to have that mind/muscle connection so that you can feel the muscle WHILE doing heavy weight and constant tension exercises...to me it has absolutely nothing to do with rep speed. 3/4 reps at a good pace with heavy weight is a perfect example of utilizing the mind muscle connection properly, in my opinion. Once you have that awareness, it is present in all your lifts (well, hopefully).


So to an extent, I completely agree with you. The super slow strict lighter movements no longer give me huge gains, but being mentally present IN the muscle while repping away on heavier weight does...

I think you are probably right, we are just talking semantics at this point. I'm against what you state in your last paragraph. I have seen people post here and other boards about making a a lighter weight feel heavier and THAT is what I'm against. I would rather make a heavy weight feel light.

 

[ironcide]

Nice post...I like some of it, don't know if I agree with some, probably haven't given some things enough of a shot to either agree or disagree with.

But you know what I love? Serious posts that are on the topics that matter...training, "supps" and nutrition

Have you tried any volume training since you've been using super supps?

I want to try training body parts twice a week...but getting into the gym six days a week and not getting burnt out with my work the way it is sounds impossible.

 

[tri-terror]

Nice post...I like some of it, don't know if I agree with some, probably haven't given some things enough of a shot to either agree or disagree with.

But you know what I love? Serious posts that are on the topics that matter...training, "supps" and nutrition

Have you tried any volume training since you've been using super supps?

I want to try training body parts twice a week...but getting into the gym six days a week and not getting burnt out with my work the way it is sounds impossible.

Well, I guess I would say I've done "volume" training 3 times with supps. When I did 5/3/1 I would consider that volume training, During my prep this year when I did Gironda style, and a few months ago I pieced together a Mountain Dog routine on my own.

They key to getting to the gym six days a week and not getting burnt out is to lower your volume so you can get in and out. I try and be done in 45 min to an hour.

 

[zachbean79]

Well, I guess I would say I've done "volume" training 3 times with supps. When I did 5/3/1 I would consider that volume training, During my prep this year when I did Gironda style, and a few months ago I pieced together a Mountain Dog routine on my own.

They key to getting to the gym six days a week and not getting burnt out is to lower your volume so you can get in and out. I try and be done in 45 min to an hour.

I totally aggree....each body part two time per week is great but you have to keep those training sessions kinda brief.

Thats why I think girondas "a muscle has four sids" program is great. If you really look at the program I actually see aalot of similarities to phil hernons training ideas. The whole program is written out over at b-boys forum but here's the basics

-3 way split
-6 days training per week
- an AM and PM session of the same workout(the results are amazing if you are able to do 2x per day)
-only 4 heavy sets per BP per workout
-each session only takes 30-45 minutes to complete

 

[zachbean79]

Tri-terror

Check out the way Nick Mitchel(bodybuilding trainer in england) does face pulls. he has video examples of how to perform face pulls with both regular and pronated grips. they have really done wonders for my rear delts and rhomboids and such

 

[Chode Logan]

Tri-terror

Check out the way Nick Mitchel(bodybuilding trainer in england) does face pulls. he has video examples of how to perform face pulls with both regular and pronated grips. they have really done wonders for my rear delts and rhomboids and such

They are a great exercise to warm up with before doing presses too. I start my chest/shoulder day with these.

 

[luckyone]

Great thread TRI, much appreciated.

your brother in Christ,

Lucky

 

[Queefer]

Nice post...I like some of it, don't know if I agree with some, probably haven't given some things enough of a shot to either agree or disagree with.

But you know what I love? Serious posts that are on the topics that matter...training, "supps" and nutrition

Have you tried any volume training since you've been using super supps?

I want to try training body parts twice a week...but getting into the gym six days a week and not getting burnt out with my work the way it is sounds impossible.

Try 6 days per week, I think you will like it. I make my very best gains when I train 7 days a week and 2 to 3 hrs per day.

 

[tr]

Great read. But I think everyone has to fing what works for him best and I can only speak what works best for myself but not other. I'm tall with long limbs ecto who has hard time putting on mass and used to train with very heavy weights in the past - squats with 455 and bench press with 375 (that's very heavy for me) fo reps, every set (did 9-12 sets per bp) to failure, every workout no delaods no lighter training sessions etc and I grew a little bit but was flat no matter how much I ate (too much sets to failure, too much weight on the bars) switched to lower volume DC training - grow a lot better but started to have joint problems and with rest pause on every set 3-4 times per week was too much for my CNS too...now I'm training with a lot higher volume 16-20 sets per body part sometimes few times per week, but only 3-4 sets are to failure or very close to failure with as much as I can use, other than that - few reps shy from failure with moderate wights kinda "feeling" sets and I've found this works best for me, I grow a lot better, recover a lot better and I'm a lot fuller and bigger on lower dosages. this training style keep me very lean too wothout minimal to none cardio

 

[Queefer]

Great read. But I think everyone has to fing what works for him best and I can only speak what works best for myself but not other. I'm tall with long limbs ecto who has hard time putting on mass and used to train with very heavy weights in the past - squats with 455 and bench press with 375 (that's very heavy for me) fo reps, every set (did 9-12 sets per bp) to failure, every workout no delaods no lighter training sessions etc and I grew a little bit but was flat no matter how much I ate (too much sets to failure, too much weight on the bars) switched to lower volume DC training - grow a lot better but started to have joint problems and with rest pause on every set 3-4 times per week was too much for my CNS too...now I'm training with a lot higher volume 16-20 sets per body part sometimes few times per week, but only 3-4 sets are to failure or very close to failure with as much as I can use, other than that - few reps shy from failure with moderate wights kinda "feeling" sets and I've found this works best for me, I grow a lot better, recover a lot better and I'm a lot fuller and bigger on lower dosages. this training style keep me very lean too wothout minimal to none cardio

That brings up a good point. I think your style of training, which is similar to mine, works for us taller and especially older guys. I strongly believe staying healthy and being consistent is the key to long term gains.