Nandrolone increases the Estrogenic Potency of Testosterone

[gains4000]

Most of us know "Nandrolone Converts to Estradiol at 20% the rate of Testosterone".

This is true, Nandrolone barley aromatizes, but this is just surface level information. It is not as simple as " adding Nandrolone to my testosterone cycle will increase the aromatization by ~20%.

Nandrolone is 19-nortestosterone and is an "Estrane" (C18) steroid. Nandrolone is an endogenous intermediate in the production of estradiol from testosterone via aromatase in mammals including humans and is present in the body naturally in trace amounts. It can be detected during pregnancy in women.

Combination of testosterone and nandrolone = induction of 3b HSD subtype 1, which is involved in the conversion of E1 to E2, thereby testosterone synergises the estrogenic potency of nandrolone.

Stacking an oral steroid like Dianabol alongside injectable DECA was the standard muscle mass building cycle of choice for bodybuilders in the 70's and 80's. DECA was not widely known for producing progesterone and prolactin related side effects such as being unable to orgasm or get an erection until bodybuilders started combining it together with testosterone simultaneously. DECA and testosterone mix very badly for the majority of bodybuilders. The Deca seems to sensitize the body to some of the female hormones that Testosterone turns into. At the same time, Testosterone seems to sensitize the body to some of the progesterone/prolactin related effects of Deca.

Mike Mentzer is known to have loved Nandrolone. His training partner Larry Pollack has stated that Mike and Larry used 900mg of Nandrolone phenylpropionate a week, 300mg Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and supplemented that with 0 testosterone. This was Mike Mentzer’s preferred steroid stack and caused physique changes overnight. He was likely lying about the dosage. I'd multiply what Larry Pollack said about the 300mg 3x per week to 900mg 3x per week to get closer to what Mentzer was actually taking.
Danny Padilla took 400mg Deca-Durabolin a day for a total weekly dosage of 2,800mg nandrolone per week and achieved amazing condition on that stack alone.

 

[Type-IIx]

Most of us know "Nandrolone Converts to Estradiol at 20% the rate of Testosterone".

This is true, Nandrolone barley aromatizes, but this is just surface level information. It is not as simple as " adding Nandrolone to my testosterone cycle will increase the aromatization by ~20%.

Nandrolone is 19-nortestosterone and is an "Estrane" (C18) steroid. Nandrolone is an endogenous intermediate in the production of estradiol from testosterone via aromatase in mammals including humans and is present in the body naturally in trace amounts. It can be detected during pregnancy in women.

All true (according to hypothetical models on 19-norsteroids as aromatase intermediates), but really and truly irrelevant with respect to endogenous biological effects in men. I mean, hCG stimulates 19-norandrosterone secretion in men.

Combination of testosterone and nandrolone = induction of 3b HSD subtype 1, which is involved in the conversion of E1 to E2, thereby testosterone synergises the estrogenic potency of nandrolone.

Nah, while nandrolone does increase estrogen sensitivity, it has nothing to do with "induction" of 3β-HSD1. 3β-HSD is a bifunctional enzyme that catalyzes the oxidative conversion of Delta(5)-ene-3-beta-hydroxy steroids, and the oxidative conversion of ketosteroids. Basically, it works in both directions to convert a steroid with a keto group at C-3 to one with a hydroxy group in the same position, or vice versa.

Nandrolone differs from testosterone by the former lacking a C-19 methyl group (both are 3-ketosteroids).

Both testosterone and nandrolone produce E2 by aromatase (that produces estrogens by a two-step hydroxylation at C-19, and cleavage of the bond between C10 and C19). E2 isn't potentiated by 3β-HSD, it's weakened to E1 (the two are essentially in a state of flux).

Rather, the explanation for why progestins increase estrogen sensitivity is explained in Distinction between Prolactin and Progestins [by Type-IIx]

Stacking an oral steroid like Dianabol alongside injectable DECA was the standard muscle mass building cycle of choice for bodybuilders in the 70's and 80's. DECA was not widely known for producing progesterone and prolactin related side effects such as being unable to orgasm or get an erection until bodybuilders started combining it together with testosterone simultaneously. DECA and testosterone mix very badly for the majority of bodybuilders. The Deca seems to sensitize the body to some of the female hormones that Testosterone turns into. At the same time, Testosterone seems to sensitize the body to some of the progesterone/prolactin related effects of Deca.

Mike Mentzer is known to have loved Nandrolone. His training partner Larry Pollack has stated that Mike and Larry used 900mg of Nandrolone phenylpropionate a week, 300mg Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and supplemented that with 0 testosterone. This was Mike Mentzer’s preferred steroid stack and caused physique changes overnight. He was likely lying about the dosage. I'd multiply what Larry Pollack said about the 300mg 3x per week to 900mg 3x per week to get closer to what Mentzer was actually taking.
Danny Padilla took 400mg Deca-Durabolin a day for a total weekly dosage of 2,800mg nandrolone per week and achieved amazing condition on that stack alone.

 

[gains4000]

All true (according to hypothetical models on 19-norsteroids as aromatase intermediates), but really and truly irrelevant with respect to endogenous biological effects in men. I mean, hCG stimulates 19-norandrosterone secretion in men.

Nah, while nandrolone does increase estrogen sensitivity, it has nothing to do with "induction" of 3β-HSD1. 3β-HSD is a bifunctional enzyme that catalyzes the oxidative conversion of Delta(5)-ene-3-beta-hydroxy steroids, and the oxidative conversion of ketosteroids. Basically, it works in both directions to convert a steroid with a keto group at C-3 to one with a hydroxy group in the same position, or vice versa.

Nandrolone differs from testosterone by the former lacking a C-19 methyl group (both are 3-ketosteroids).

Both testosterone and nandrolone produce E2 by aromatase (that produces estrogens by a two-step hydroxylation at C-19, and cleavage of the bond between C10 and C19). E2 isn't potentiated by 3β-HSD, it's weakened to E1 (the two are essentially in a state of flux).

Rather, the explanation for why progestins increase estrogen sensitivity is explained in Distinction between Prolactin and Progestins [by Type-IIx]

yes, so nandrolone does increase estrogenic potency of T. This can explain why older bodybuilders did not combine Test and Nand.

Combining the two increases Prolactin as well, which leads to even more side effects. all in all the combination of the 2 don't seem favorable - not to say this combination isn't highly anabolic.

 

[Mufasa123]

N=1 and totally anecdotal but when I combine 200 test with 200 nandrolone my bloods show significantly higher E2 than 200 test + 20%. This is sensative E2 test at both Labcorp and quest. From memory almost 2x.

Random or just me, no idea. I'm away but I can pull records at some point.

 

[gains4000]

N=1 and totally anecdotal but when I combine 200 test with 200 nandrolone my bloods show significantly higher E2 than 200 test + 20%. This is sensative E2 test at both Labcorp and quest. From memory almost 2x.

Random or just me, no idea. I'm away but I can pull records at some point.

the combination can be messy - that is for sure. Do you like nandrolone all in all?

 

[qbkilla]

Haven't used much nandrolone but imo I'm seeing a trend towards guys being afraid of estrogen and using anti e reckless. Probably part of the trt craze clinic's convincing guys their derogatory needs to be "dialed in" which means tons of testimony and anti e sold. Imagine if guys of the past got their levels tested every week and skipped training sessions to see lab corp and the trt clinic to ensure their estrogen was perfect.

 

[emeric delczeg]

Most of us know "Nandrolone Converts to Estradiol at 20% the rate of Testosterone".

This is true, Nandrolone barley aromatizes, but this is just surface level information. It is not as simple as " adding Nandrolone to my testosterone cycle will increase the aromatization by ~20%.

Nandrolone is 19-nortestosterone and is an "Estrane" (C18) steroid. Nandrolone is an endogenous intermediate in the production of estradiol from testosterone via aromatase in mammals including humans and is present in the body naturally in trace amounts. It can be detected during pregnancy in women.

Combination of testosterone and nandrolone = induction of 3b HSD subtype 1, which is involved in the conversion of E1 to E2, thereby testosterone synergises the estrogenic potency of nandrolone.

Stacking an oral steroid like Dianabol alongside injectable DECA was the standard muscle mass building cycle of choice for bodybuilders in the 70's and 80's. DECA was not widely known for producing progesterone and prolactin related side effects such as being unable to orgasm or get an erection until bodybuilders started combining it together with testosterone simultaneously. DECA and testosterone mix very badly for the majority of bodybuilders. The Deca seems to sensitize the body to some of the female hormones that Testosterone turns into. At the same time, Testosterone seems to sensitize the body to some of the progesterone/prolactin related effects of Deca.

Mike Mentzer is known to have loved Nandrolone. His training partner Larry Pollack has stated that Mike and Larry used 900mg of Nandrolone phenylpropionate a week, 300mg Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and supplemented that with 0 testosterone. This was Mike Mentzer’s preferred steroid stack and caused physique changes overnight. He was likely lying about the dosage. I'd multiply what Larry Pollack said about the 300mg 3x per week to 900mg 3x per week to get closer to what Mentzer was actually taking.
Danny Padilla took 400mg Deca-Durabolin a day for a total weekly dosage of 2,800mg nandrolone per week and achieved amazing condition on that stack alone.

Danny never tool 400md Deca per day, is not true. I spoke with Dany almost every day.

 

[gains4000]

Danny never tool 400md Deca per day, is not true. I spoke with Dany almost every day.

he used nandrolone without Test, correct? What dosage of deca did he tell you he took?

 

[Mufasa123]

the combination can be messy - that is for sure. Do you like nandrolone all in all?

So I'm late 40s and with some long off periods (family, work, other priorities) have used deca extensively. It's 2nd only to test for me and my go to anabolic for everything. Joint benefits are great and I feel it's promoted an environment to enhance healing (like anti inflammatory - not miracle) but also that joint lube is less wear/tear so almost preventative over time.

Doesn't mess with my bloods up to 750 test and 600 deca. I've run 200/200 for 2-3 years at a time withiut change or break. Bloods like a rock. I've been back on the same for cruise now 5 months in and should have never left for cruise purposes. Fucking great compound.

I will say it's changed over the years. In my early 20s I could run deca by itself or with 200mg of test weekly and was fine. Now deca needs to be equal or less than test - that said I haven't tried running high deca low test in decades (maybe I should try but experimentation is costly from a time perspective). A little tren or mast fixes any issues anyway.

 

[emeric delczeg]

he used nandrolone without Test, correct? What dosage of deca did he tell you he took?

200mg per week only.

 

[gains4000]

200mg per week only.

hahahahah ok

 

[gains4000]

Haven't used much nandrolone but imo I'm seeing a trend towards guys being afraid of estrogen and using anti e reckless. Probably part of the trt craze clinic's convincing guys their derogatory needs to be "dialed in" which means tons of testimony and anti e sold. Imagine if guys of the past got their levels tested every week and skipped training sessions to see lab corp and the trt clinic to ensure their estrogen was perfect.

I never use AI. I believe in running a cycle that properly balances each compound without using SERMS, AI, or Caber.

 

[hawkmoon]

200mg per week only.

I have great respect for you , and I'm a low dose guy myself, but I think that was a "creative" answer he gave you.
100-200mg wk is a therapeutic dose for the average male (anemia).

 

[juggy38]

Jordan Peterson holds 280lns of muscle on 400mg primo lol.

For three weeks While the 2g deca clears.

Then he goes to 150mg tren ace ED with 900mg EQ

 

[emeric delczeg]

I have great respect for you , and I'm a low dose guy myself, but I think that was a "creative" answer he gave you.
100-200mg wk is a therapeutic dose for the average male (anemia).

Back then not everybody was on high dozes, some incorporated dianabol with deca and some incorporated test, but not more than 200mg deca per week. I don`t know what everybody used, I know only people I know personally and still talking and have a relationship.

 

[phoenix2]

I never touched deca and never will, but i think tren does that to me.
Whenever i add tren to a given dose of test and AI, i start to feel estrogenic sides amplified, like my body is more sensistive to estrogen or i'm aromatizing more.

 

[gains4000]

I never touched deca and never will, but i think tren does that to me.
Whenever i add tren to a given dose of test and AI, i start to feel estrogenic sides amplified, like my body is more sensistive to estrogen or i'm aromatizing more.

I have seen numerous people say the same thing. It is a fact Tren and Deca increase E sensitivity.

 

[headtrainer]

I guess we could simplify things somewhat by saying any steroid that aromatizes into estrogen and/or progestin will increase prolactin levels. When you combine test and deca you get a larger dose which equates to more prolactin. Using deca alone shuts my sex drive down harder than adding test with the deca. I need some DHT for a good sex drive.

 

[phoenix2]

Prolactin increase is the result of the enhanced estrogenic activity. Tren and deca do not increase prolactin per se, they do this through estrogens (more aromatization of test? Sensitizing recepetors? Who knows), which disrupt dopaminergic signalling between hypotalamus and pituitary gland, leading to prolactin release.
With nandrolone this effect is more pronounced, because nandrolone convertsi into DHN through 5 alpha reductase, which has anti-androgenic activity and competes with the DHT for the AR and ER binding.
Normally when DHT binds estrogen receptors (ER), it has anti-estrogenic activity, so with DHN in the mix we have an even more estrogenic enviroment. More estrogens = more prolactin.

 

[xpoc]

Back then not everybody was on high dozes, some incorporated dianabol with deca and some incorporated test, but not more than 200mg deca per week. I don`t know what everybody used, I know only people I know personally and still talking and have a relationship.

when i was a kid in my local socal gym in the mid 1980s, the standard drug stack for just about every wannabe competitor was 500mg of deca and a handful of dbol and anadrol per week. surprised to hear danny was only taking a fraction of that.