Nandrolone increases the Estrogenic Potency of Testosterone

[Bio]

Comparison of two androgens plus depot-medroxyprogesterone acetate for suppression to azoospermia in Indonesian men

To compare the sperm suppression in Indonesian men achieved by combination treatment with either T enanthate or 19-nortestosterone-hexyloxy-phenyl-pro…

www.sciencedirect.com

Testosterone + Progestin vs Nandrolone + Progestin

More Men suffered from loss of libido in the Nandrolone group than the Testosterone group.

Both groups had reached azoospermia in most men (95%+)

This study further supports @Type-IIx claim that Nandrolone can't replace Sexual functioning in men - although i do have studies showing no loss of libido at 600mg/nandrolone a week.

What was the duration of the study/studies where individuals were using 600mg of Nandrolone/wk? That could be telling. When it comes to HIV, using a drug to help counteract one's mortality but winding up impotent would be seen as acceptable until another drug or combination of drugs becomes available to counteract that side effect.

 

[LATS]

Most of us know "Nandrolone Converts to Estradiol at 20% the rate of Testosterone".

This is true, Nandrolone barley aromatizes, but this is just surface level information. It is not as simple as " adding Nandrolone to my testosterone cycle will increase the aromatization by ~20%.

Nandrolone is 19-nortestosterone and is an "Estrane" (C18) steroid. Nandrolone is an endogenous intermediate in the production of estradiol from testosterone via aromatase in mammals including humans and is present in the body naturally in trace amounts. It can be detected during pregnancy in women.

Combination of testosterone and nandrolone = induction of 3b HSD subtype 1, which is involved in the conversion of E1 to E2, thereby testosterone synergises the estrogenic potency of nandrolone.

Stacking an oral steroid like Dianabol alongside injectable DECA was the standard muscle mass building cycle of choice for bodybuilders in the 70's and 80's. DECA was not widely known for producing progesterone and prolactin related side effects such as being unable to orgasm or get an erection until bodybuilders started combining it together with testosterone simultaneously. DECA and testosterone mix very badly for the majority of bodybuilders. The Deca seems to sensitize the body to some of the female hormones that Testosterone turns into. At the same time, Testosterone seems to sensitize the body to some of the progesterone/prolactin related effects of Deca.

Mike Mentzer is known to have loved Nandrolone. His training partner Larry Pollack has stated that Mike and Larry used 900mg of Nandrolone phenylpropionate a week, 300mg Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and supplemented that with 0 testosterone. This was Mike Mentzer’s preferred steroid stack and caused physique changes overnight. He was likely lying about the dosage. I'd multiply what Larry Pollack said about the 300mg 3x per week to 900mg 3x per week to get closer to what Mentzer was actually taking.
Danny Padilla took 400mg Deca-Durabolin a day for a total weekly dosage of 2,800mg nandrolone per week and achieved amazing condition on that stack alone.

Late to the party on this post.. but as some of you know as I've written about it before I have a old note book I purchased from a gentian who worked out with mentzer in the early 80s.. this guy lived 20 miles from me.. had some great stories .. but Mike's recommendation to him was dbol and deca.. 900 mgs of nandrolone a week and dbol was in the 50 to 100 mgs range pyramiding up and down .. but yes deca was popular but it was not without its sexual sides even then..

I was able to talk many times with Greg deferro.. he was pretty honest in his protocal back then.. at least as honest as these guys will be. . Greg said a typical off season was test, dbol, deca.. test was 400 to 600 mgs a week.. dbol was around 50mgs a day.. and deca was around 400mgs.. he said test was lower for fear of gyno etc.. but also mentioned that test was not always used and dbol was heavily relied on in its place.. Greg also mentioned that many competitors complained about deca and its sexual disfunction side effects..

As for Danny Padilla.. Danny had a workout partner that went by max rep on the old getbig boards .. he used to post stories on the Golden era and pictures.. he worked out with Danny for quite a bit.. said Danny did a typical 600 test and 400 deca off season.. he also mentioned that Danny's significant other used to complain about Danny's use of deca as it put a crimp on their sex life lol

 

[xpoc]

mid 80s, bodybuilders at my gym took 2-4 cc of deca per week plus dbol while bulking or anavar while cutting. no test. no gh etc.

 

[hawkmoon]

mid 80s, bodybuilders at my gym took 2-4 cc of deca per week plus dbol while bulking or anavar while cutting. no test. no gh etc.

Pretty much what I did in 89-91. I did use test, but maybe 2-400 max (Upjohn or Steris). Anadrol instead of Dbol, and Sytemx Anadrol and Hemogenin were easier to get. We viewed test as cheap and dirty, which in some ways it was with no AIs. To this day Deca is still my favorite.

 

[luki7788]

Pretty much what I did in 89-91. I did use test, but maybe 2-400 max (Upjohn or Steris). Anadrol instead of Dbol, and Sytemx Anadrol and Hemogenin were easier to get. We viewed test as cheap and dirty, which in some ways it was with no AIs. To this day Deca is still my favorite.

in the past orals were really every cycle, is it offseason or pr contest, today everyone is trying to move away from orals especially in offseason and honestly? I don't know if it gives better results

 

[hawkmoon]

in the past orals were really every cycle, is it offseason or pr contest, today everyone is trying to move away from orals especially in offseason and honestly? I don't know if it gives better results

They were almost every cycle, but we did cycle.on and off with 2-3 month breaks in between so it was certainly tolerable.

I loved real Anadrol and Anavar.
When I was 20 or so I worked up to 6 tabs a day for a few weeks. It was insane how strong I got and how pumped I was 24/7.

At the time real dianabol was very hard to get. There was some Russian and German stuff around, but is seemed sketchy.

 

[gains4000]

What was the duration of the study/studies where individuals were using 600mg of Nandrolone/wk? That could be telling. When it comes to HIV, using a drug to help counteract one's mortality but winding up impotent would be seen as acceptable until another drug or combination of drugs becomes available to counteract that side effect.

12 weeks https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/84/4/1268/2864210

 

[TheRoid]

They were almost every cycle, but we did cycle.on and off with 2-3 month breaks in between so it was certainly tolerable.

I loved real Anadrol and Anavar.

My two favorite orals. They don't f*ck up with my appetite nor make me tired and I still use them when bulking and cutting.

 

[gains4000]

in the past orals were really every cycle, is it offseason or pr contest, today everyone is trying to move away from orals especially in offseason and honestly? I don't know if it gives better results

luki don't you always suggest proviron with deca so theres no side effects? i take proviron year round and i think if i add deca i shouldn't get libido problems since proviron is a strong androgenic.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

luki don't you always suggest proviron with deca so theres no side effects? i take proviron year round and i think if i add deca i shouldn't get libido problems since proviron is a strong androgenic.

This may be OT (sorry): At what dose did proviron give you a sexual boost? I’m married so two weeks we’re hot then two weeks we’re just not into it, ya know? I’d like to fill in those gaps with maybe a little boost.

I tried 25, 50mg qd and nothing. What about say 100mg?

I assume it’s right up there with the others in terms of liver toxicity. But perhaps its molecular structure allows for easier metabolism, I’m not sure I haven’t looked at it yet.

Oh, and props to you @gains4000 and @Type-IIx for an incredible and educational discussion on nandrolones and its effects on conversion, etc. Civil and respectful. Great info! This is when I love ProMuscle most.

 

[luki7788]

luki don't you always suggest proviron with deca so theres no side effects? i take proviron year round and i think if i add deca i shouldn't get libido problems since proviron is a strong androgenic.

yes - I like to use proviron all year round, it's not a typical oral and it's not toxic like other group 17 orals

 

[LATS]

yes - I like to use proviron all year round, it's not a typical oral and it's not toxic like other group 17 orals

I've always used a small amount of mast to combat deca sides.. works well..

 

[TheRoid]

This may be OT (sorry): At what dose did proviron give you a sexual boost? I’m married so two weeks we’re hot then two weeks we’re just not into it, ya know? I’d like to fill in those gaps with maybe a little boost.

I tried 25, 50mg qd and nothing. What about say 100mg?

I assume it’s right up there with the others in terms of liver toxicity. But perhaps its molecular structure allows for easier metabolism, I’m not sure I haven’t looked at it yet.

Oh, and props to you @gains4000 and @Type-IIx for an incredible and educational discussion on nandrolones and its effects on conversion, etc. Civil and respectful. Great info! This is when I love ProMuscle most.

In my fairly extensive experience with both, Proviron is not a reliable tool for sex drive enhancement. Its mild effects fade off quickly and even at high dosages is less effective than a moderate dose of Masteron. Not to mention that the latter has other welcome features that Proviron definitely has not.
On the other hand, I've always found Proviron more noticeable as a mood/cognitive booster for some reason.
My liver enzymes never increased -at all- with Mesterolone, even after 100mg/ day for several months a time.

 

[Ranchhand]

yes - I like to use proviron all year round, it's not a typical oral and it's not toxic like other group 17 orals

I've always used a small amount of mast to combat deca sides.. works well..

To me it sounds like adding any well-known DHT to a Deca run can be a good idea. Deca is that one that I've never really have done a solid run with. But did pick some up earlier this year to add a little bit in for joint relief and a little bit of that fullness look while trying to keep water retention low without having to add anything to control water retention. For a while now my base combo has been Test and Mast. Replaced Provi with the Mast about two years ago and like Mast. Never used Primo but wonder if it would provide the same effect as the Mast and Provi as a DHT being used with Deca. Even though Anavar is a DHT derivative, from all the reading I've done it doesn't seem to provide the same effect as the other 3 mentioned DHT's. Any thoughts are welcomed.

 

[gains4000]

This may be OT (sorry): At what dose did proviron give you a sexual boost? I’m married so two weeks we’re hot then two weeks we’re just not into it, ya know? I’d like to fill in those gaps with maybe a little boost.

I tried 25, 50mg qd and nothing. What about say 100mg?

I assume it’s right up there with the others in terms of liver toxicity. But perhaps its molecular structure allows for easier metabolism, I’m not sure I haven’t looked at it yet.

Oh, and props to you @gains4000 and @Type-IIx for an incredible and educational discussion on nandrolones and its effects on conversion, etc. Civil and respectful. Great info! This is when I love ProMuscle most.

its not toxic at all you wont lose any hunger or get any lethargy with proviron, its very good in that aspect. i take 50mg and thats enough for the libido increase.

i have seen some guys get no response to proviron. You can try to go to 100mg but if that doesn't give you any effects then it just might not work for you.

Masteron can a be a good alternative to proviron if you want to increase libido.

 

[Ranchhand]

Masteron can a be a good alternative to proviron if you want to increase libido.

I get a better sustained increase in libido with Mast over Provi. One reason I've chosen to use Mast over Provi.

 

[LATS]

To me it sounds like adding any well-known DHT to a Deca run can be a good idea. Deca is that one that I've never really have done a solid run with. But did pick some up earlier this year to add a little bit in for joint relief and a little bit of that fullness look while trying to keep water retention low without having to add anything to control water retention. For a while now my base combo has been Test and Mast. Replaced Provi with the Mast about two years ago and like Mast. Never used Primo but wonder if it would provide the same effect as the Mast and Provi as a DHT being used with Deca. Even though Anavar is a DHT derivative, from all the reading I've done it doesn't seem to provide the same effect as the other 3 mentioned DHT's. Any thoughts are welcomed.

Honestly I've run primo also but it didn't have the same effect as mast..

 

[Ranchhand]

Honestly I've run primo also but it didn't have the same effect as mast..

Good to know, thanks, with everything I've read and threads that I follow this has started to become the general consensus when comparing the different DHT's.

 

[marssel]

Why does science direct say this?
"19-NT has been shown to suppress LH and FSH effectively with full maintenance of androgen-dependent functions. With the combination of both androgenic and progestational activity, the potential for 19-NT to provide contraception as a single agent has been considered. Small trials with 19-NT alone or in combination with depot medroxyprogesterone acetate (DMPA, see below) have confirmed that azoospermia is induced without any symptoms of androgen deficiency (despite low T levels)."

Anyway i'm not advocating for deca only. i just haven't found any study on why nandrolone, a male sex hormone, would cause impotence. i understand that the common answer is nandrolone is a less androgenic drug but a lot of AAS(winstrol, mast, proviron, drol, dbol) are less androgenic than Test on paper.

You’re correct and if you run just winny you’ll still have a limp dick. It’s all drugs that suppress and are less androgenic than test just few people try to run just winny or other lower androgenic compounds but for some reason in the 80s (imo) a bunch of morons decided to run deca only and it got arounfmd as good as I’m guessing the first 4-6 weeks in people in their early 20s went great….until it didnt

 

[gains4000]

You’re correct and if you run just winny you’ll still have a limp dick. It’s all drugs that suppress and are less androgenic than test just few people try to run just winny or other lower androgenic compounds but for some reason in the 80s (imo) a bunch of morons decided to run deca only and it got arounfmd as good as I’m guessing the first 4-6 weeks in people in their early 20s went great….until it didnt

i have tried dbol, ment, and proviron without test and all were great for libido. But all those drugs have been studied without test for androgen deficient men. i do think a TRT dosage of testosterone should always be employed , i just like experimenting.