National Level Cycle

[richiec]

Killer, what I am saying is this guy has a degree in biochemistry and molecular biology (sorry I was mistaken earlier), so he knows a lot about what supplements and foods to use to benefit him from a molecular standpoint and not bro-science. That's what I'm saying. Somebody with an MD or PhD will use steroids, so education level isn't of importance, I was just saying this guy knows how certain foods interact with his body on a molecular level better than a random guy at the gym.

Many people would look at Doug and think, oh this guys is definitely juicin, you can't get that big naturally. I'm just saying that his knowledge will help him, if he applies it, to grow naturally. That's all. I'm not trying to get into a whole back-and-forth argument about, well he has a degree so he won't juice or anything like that. This is where conversations like that go :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

There are numerous people who don't juice, and people will never believe them. Regardless if they pass 100 drug tests, there will always be those to say, "there are ways around it", "maybe not this year, but he's definitely done them in the past", "this guy is full of it, because I Can tell"

That's all

 

[Mike Hunt]

anyone with muscles = juices

end of thread

 

[sexyboy]

As far as what iabadman said...I feel there are basically 2 kinds of people in this sport.....1) the athlete guy who looks at this as a dedicated athletic endeavor, its all about fortitude, dedication and his competition with the weights ....and 2) the insecure guy who does it because he has bigtime insecurities and that never changes no matter how awesome he gets bodybuilder wise or nonawesome for that matter (and of course there are guys who have a little bit in both groups somewhat).....but by and large Ive noticed that I become very good friends with the guys who look at this endeavor athletically (the Troponin's, Dusty Hanshaw's, Homonuncleus's, Skip's, Massive G's and some local guys in the sport) and on the other hand the other group, the insecure guys who subliminually talk in the context of "Hey now, thats enough talking about me, lets instead speak a little more about myself"...LOL always end up betraying someone/me, burning someone/me, or look at everyone in a "Hi, how are you, how can I use you or step on you to further ME ahead!"

...............there is a boatload and a half of those guys in this endeavor and its "jackass in and jackass out" which means....steroids usually multiply someones personality....if you are a good guy pre steroids....you usually are an even keel pretty good guy on steroids.......if you are a disrespectful assh&^e coming into this endeavor...take it to the bank you will be even more of an assh&^e on the sauce. So yes I agree there are more "peices of shit" in this bodybuilding world than there is in other genre's no doubt about it....because its superficial, vain, and it draws people to it that are incredibly insecure whose best friend is the mirror... who in the end are still or even more so insecure. So you do have to choose friends wisely no doubt about it.....Ive gotten burnt (badly) too many times to count, once with Iabadman with me....so I totally see his point of view.

As far as your last paragraph above.... couldnt agree more...but you and I differ in what the genetic elite can accomplish. Ive seen it first hand....Ive trained guys whose only knowledge of juice was 'orange'....beginners who I took under my wing who I know absolutely had no aspect/sources to acquiring anything at all, pre internet etc etc....who gained muscle mass so damn fast it was ridiculous...and the two that come to mind (one black, and the other was german).....which also coresponds with the genetic elite in bodybuilding....the ronnies, the victor richards, the paul dilletts, the phil hills, the leo ingramms....and who are the largest white bodybuilders (by far usually?)......the germans....the markus ruhls, the gunther schlierkamps, the Armin Scholtz, Dennis Wolfes etc....

im glad you pionted that out bro about white gentics it does seem that whites with germanic descent seem to be more prone for better bbing gentics. I would count dorian in there too english is bascially germanic as well.

I think it is obvious blacks tend to have a small advantage over the whites when it comes to bodybuilding but still a white can be the best even gentically. But what does not make sence is this 100 meter sprint thing posted here its just a plain fact the brothers are faster and always will be so this can not be compared.

SB

 

[KillerStack]

Killer, what I am saying is this guy has a degree in biochemistry and molecular biology (sorry I was mistaken earlier), so he knows a lot about what supplements and foods to use to benefit him from a molecular standpoint and not bro-science. That's what I'm saying. Somebody with an MD or PhD will use steroids, so education level isn't of importance, I was just saying this guy knows how certain foods interact with his body on a molecular level better than a random guy at the gym.

This is an interesting point because the usual argument goes that there's so much more science and so much more knowledge in bodybuilding, as an explanation for the advancement in physiques, both natural and enhanced. I don't know how Doug diets but I bet there's very few special tricks involved, that it's very basic and nothing really new. Plenty of protein, reduced calories to get ripped, whether he uses more or less carbs or fat. Layne Norton is another smart natural with a degree in a field directly related to bodybuilding. There's really no tricks with the way he diets either. IMO there's really nothing new, nothing that hasn't been done almost since Sandow's day or earlier.

What I'm saying is that diet is not the explanation for inducing a chemical look, and "new diet science" isn't the reason bodybuilders are better now than yesteryear. Because no one is really doing anything new on that front - it has all been done before by bodybuilders. Plus many bodybuilders are reverting to really old-school diets, such as we've seen with the Gironda threads here.

I would also say it's the same with training. Nothing really new there.

Now, I'm not saying there aren't better and worse ways of doing things, not at all. But the red threads of all successful training and diet programs has always been the same, whether it has been arrived at by instinct or by science. More diet/training science will not take bodybuilding to the next level. Science will only help us map out the WHY of why certain programs/diets work, it won't radically change the application. Better programs basically only help bodybuilders in general get to a certain point faster, not push the limits of what we've seen in the natural/enhanced further. JMHO.

I remember when Bob Chicherillo said bodybuilding has advanced because guys started doing each bodypart only once a week. Please.

 

[Magnum]

Magnum, I think he is using running as an analogy because there really is nothing you can compare bodybuilding with. Runners are notoriously being accused of using sauce, and if a record is ever broken, people immediately say "he's on steroids because there is NO WAY he could've done that naturally". That's why I think he uses that analogy

I get ya but bodybuilding is unlike any other sport because the winner is based on a "look". In other sports you score points or the bet time, but I get what your sayin. I've seen guys who don't even look like they lift who have taken a couple dbol cycles, are they still natural? There are so many factors involved so all anyone can go by is how someone "looks". I guarantee you that if someone with the exact same physique as a 1988 Gary Strydom were to step on stage today a 229 a lot of people would believe he was natural. There are a lot of people on this board who look up to certain guys on here and they cling to every word so when one of those guys swears to God that so and so who is 240 and ripped and totally natural they totally believe them and I hate to see people try to attain something that is impossible without drugs. Anyway, we all got our opinions so it's cool.

 

[Magnum]

Actually in that picture of Haney he was 273 pounds because I had that Muscle and Fitness magazine that picture was in and the article was talking about his offseason that year and that he topped out at 278.....

I emailed Lee Haney today and he was nice enough to get back to me, so here it is in his own words. Actually I'm impressed even more because most guys 2 weeks after a show are pigs. So he put on about 12 pounds in 2 weeks so this was obviously not an off season pic.

"Jim,
The year is 1987 weight 256. About 2 weeks after the O.
Thanks for being a fan. Lee"

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

I emailed Lee Haney today and he was nice enough to get back to me, so here it is in his own words. Actually I'm impressed even more because most guys 2 weeks after a show are pigs. So he put on about 12 pounds in 2 weeks so this was obviously not an off season pic.

"Jim,
The year is 1987 weight 256. About 2 weeks after the O.
Thanks for being a fan. Lee"

You said 240, the article I saw said he was 273 and got up to 278 that offseason

256-240 = 16 pounds off
273-256 = 17 pounds off

1 pound closer to correctness than me....you win

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Actually

Marian Woronin from Poland was the fastest white man ever..... ran a 10.00 flat 100 meters .........40 years ago!

 

[Magnum]

You said 240, the article I saw said he was 273 and got up to 278 that offseason

256-240 = 16 pounds off
273-256 = 17 pounds off

1 pound closer to correctness than me....you win

Why do you find it so hard to be wrong? You said Lee weighed 273 in this pic and you said it was an off season pic. Neither is true and Lee Haney never weighed 273 in his life. I think that the most important point about this pic is the comment you made about why would Lee diet down 30 pounds from this pic when he looked so good. Now you know that it was not an off season pic, but just a slightly inflated Lee that had been eating for 2 weeks. I'm kinda surprised that you thought this was a pic of Lee in the offseason. Can you imagine what Lee would have looked like with 30 solid pounds on him? Certainly no like in this pic. Ronnie would have hand his hands full with a solid 273 Lee Haney. In actuality Lee is roughly 240 lean in this pic with mostly added water weight and a tad bit of fat from the usual post contest bloat.

 

[oreolo]

Marian Woronin from Poland was the fastest white man ever..... ran a 10.00 flat 100 meters .........40 years ago!

christophe lamietre is the first caucasian to officially run UNDER 10 SECS (sub 10). hE CLOCKED 9.98

 

[SisyphusRocks]

I AM HUNG ON SEEING THE PICTURE OF THE NATURAL PHYSIQUE CONSIDERED TO BE THE GOLD STANDARD. If you can put up a picture for ridicule, why cant you put up a picture of what you consider to be the the very best a natural can acheive?

There seems to be some disagreement as to whether or not this guy was 100% natural or not but a good example of how close you can get if you have the genetics.
**broken link removed**

 

[SantiagoMuscle]

.

 

[rocketman414]

There seems to be some disagreement as to whether or not this guy was 100% natural or not but a good example of how close you can get if you have the genetics.
**broken link removed**

i got confused by your post. are you saying there is disagreement regarding if steve reeves was 100% natural, or if a picture form earlier in the thread is of someone 100% natural?

Steve Reeves is a poor example of a "100% natural" since all the evidence points towards him being not.. (dianabol)

 

[Jblack]

The day...

That I would ever have to use that much is the day I step away from the sport...I just got completely cleared by my Doctor to do Nationals, but let me tell you we all walk a fine line, but I doubt that some of these guys check in with their doctor's let alone let anyone truly know what they take in case of a health emergency.

My mom and dad know what I do and same with my trainer that way God Forbid something happens to me I can be treated the correct way...


I really think that how he will look outside and inside within three years would be worth following up on...

Sad...truly sad and as Dusty said...RETARDED

 

[Swifto]

Marian Woronin from Poland was the fastest white man ever..... ran a 10.00 flat 100 meters .........40 years ago!

Thats some feet 40 years back.

That record was broken a few weeks back though by someone running 9.99 or 9.99 I believe.

 

[ironone1]

Thats some feet 40 years back.

That record was broken a few weeks back though by someone running 9.99 or 9.99 I believe.

Not sure what you mean. Usain Bolt was way under that at 9.5 or 9.6's, unless your talking about a white guy.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Why do you find it so hard to be wrong? You said Lee weighed 273 in this pic and you said it was an off season pic. Neither is true and Lee Haney never weighed 273 in his life. I think that the most important point about this pic is the comment you made about why would Lee diet down 30 pounds from this pic when he looked so good. Now you know that it was not an off season pic, but just a slightly inflated Lee that had been eating for 2 weeks. I'm kinda surprised that you thought this was a pic of Lee in the offseason. Can you imagine what Lee would have looked like with 30 solid pounds on him? Certainly no like in this pic. Ronnie would have hand his hands full with a solid 273 Lee Haney. In actuality Lee is roughly 240 lean in this pic with mostly added water weight and a tad bit of fat from the usual post contest bloat.

Because I think you continually state your opinion as fact. And your opinion isnt fact. You tried to chastise that guy that said his friend was 6'2" 240 by saying "Well here is Lee Haney at 240" when he was at 256 actually. Cmon we all knew the kid didnt mean contest ready ripped, how come you are the one guy who did? You say Lee Haney never weighed 273 in his life.....he freaking competed in 1989 at 257 pounds! What did he do walk around all year long at 265 eight pounds over his onstage weight? Who the hell walks around at 8 pounds over their stage weight all year long?

Like i said, I saw an article that said Haney was 273-278 that offseason (I cant remember what year it was...but thats what the article said)....they also announced him in the high 270's - 280at the Golds Classic. So you can continue to use the "Magnum book of facts" which I think is just one guy who by his opinion thinks anyone over 185 pounds is juicing to the gills.

Again your opinion is your opinion....and when you say "FACT: Shelby's training partner is ON!".....who the hell would know? YOU? Or Shelby? Shelby would and your fact means jack.......

Ok back to Haney....according to your calculations and I quote "In actuality Lee is roughly 240 lean in this pic with mostly added water weight and a tad bit of fat from the usual post contest bloat".....so 2 weeks after Lee's show he gained 16 pounds according to you.

Here is Lee's own words about Rimini in 1989

Lee Haney's Ultimate Bodybuilding ... - Google Books

So I guess 2 weeks after this show Lee probably gained 16 pounds again and weighed.... wow 273....geez who would have guessed.

 

[Nardz]

Saying everyone and his dog is juicin is the same as saying that everyone is Natural.

By the way where did you get this fact that no natural back in the day weighed 240 at 6ft? Was it just something you made up and now has become fact? Show me the proof mate?

The saying "if it looks too good to be true, it is" is the most negative thing I have ever heard and its usually said by someone that is not happy with himself and hates on everyone. Cmon man holding onto that kind of mindset is not going to get you anywhere. Get rid of it!

 

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[KillerStack]

The saying "if it looks too good to be true, it is" is the most negative thing I have ever heard and its usually said by someone that is not happy with himself and hates on everyone. Cmon man holding onto that kind of mindset is not going to get you anywhere. Get rid of it!

I'm going to test something on you.

Here's a picture of someone who swears up and down he never touched hormones. Others who also back him up are bodybuilding journalist Aaron Singerman, IFBB Pro Flex Lewis; bodybuilding expert Bob Bonham thinks he's at least clean nowadays. This guy competed in natural shows and now wrestles.

I'm an unhappy guy and call complete and utter bullshit. The guy juiced since early-mid teens and is still on a major regimen IMO.

What say you? How happy are you with yourself?

Google 'Rob Terry' if you need more pics for assessment.