new thoughts on estrogen control

[Knight9]

Now a bodybuilder on supraphysiological doses of test (500+ mg test weekly or 2000+ ng/dL total Test) I think is anyone's guess...likely not HEALTHY which anything in excess generally speaking isn't ideal for health. Estro crushed with too much AI has for SURE been a problem in my past and I spent quite some time adjusting until I got things close to right which was 100mg test 3x a week and 1/2mg arim twice a week...the daily dose and a little lower total without an AI is significantly better.

Some trt and anti aging docs site studies where up to 600mg test was used weekly without negative effects. I think Rand McClain and Eric Serrano have both mentioned it in vids/podcasts.

 

[hemipower]

Some trt and anti aging docs site studies where up to 600mg test was used weekly without negative effects. I think Rand McClain and Eric Serrano have both mentioned it in vids/podcasts.

Yes I've seen those studies...I don't think they were very long term though to be honest but that's part of my reasoning for trying the higher dosing without an ai and had no real concerns. But really even 50-60 per day was 400ish total...still not extreme by any means.

 

[Gearsofwar]

Very interesting, I also think there is one aspect we also forget to analyze. That with age our bodies change and so do our hormone profiles.

 

[Swifto]

This is an awesome thread.

I've seen John Meadows state he's not a fan of AI's and uses 20-40mg/ED Tamoxifen for E control.

Its odd, perhaps we've gone full circle here and instead of AI usage to control E, we're going back to Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) at 10-20mg/ED for E control again. We now know Tamox has an E lowering effects anyway.

I have asked Dr. Michael Scally his thoughts on this thread and at SteroidAbuse.org we're going to put a new article together on Estrogen.

 

[Knight9]

We now know Tamox has an E lowering effects anyway.

We do? Am I out to lunch on this? I thought it only blocks estrogen at the nipple.

 

[Rogue]

I'll say this, I tolerate higher than 40 for estradiol in my patients if they're feeling well. BUT, once it gets over 60 or so range, I do discuss an AI with them. I think there's just much we don't know yet.

As far as comparing these guys on TRT to the bodybuilders that died...well, it's not quite apples to oranges.

But I think being cautious is important. Also, AI's can have their own deleterious effects, so there's a balance. Some can get it dialed in perfect and that's great. I've seen SO many who are on baby doses of arimidex and are tanked and feel awful. But they never needed an AI to begin with.

I think doing as much as possible to get a "normal" estradiol within trt dosing/timing is the best start, and only if estradiol is then still too high, would I throw in an AI.

I've had great success with guys doing their injections every 3.5 days, which is what I do. But even daily can be great...the problem is most "normal" guys (not bodybuilders) don't want to inject daily. So, it's all context.

*not trying to pick a fight*

We do? Am I out to lunch on this? I thought it only blocks estrogen at the nipple.

It dose just that, latches onto the receptor competing with E not activate said receptor.

 

[fitzchivalry]

It dose just that, latches onto the receptor competing with E not activate said receptor.

Does nolva still allow you to get the supposed benefits of the higher estrogen and ONLY not activate receptor?

Where would masteron fall into this? Knowing that it doesn't lower estrogen but does it act like nolvadex just less strong? When I take masteron on TRT doses I seem to get lower estrogen symptoms without estrogen actually being lowered obviously. Do you lose the "benefits" of higher estrogen when taking that?

 

[Elvia1023]

to me that discredits their view right there. I think we've all felt the symptoms creep in when adding something like Dbol or some other very "wet" drug without upping AIs. Its a very causal relationship.

Quick post but I agree. I have come across many guys who have developed gyno after using aromatizing drugs. Blood tests have shown elevated estrogen. No AI or SERM was used. Many guys monitor insulin and FBG and it stays in the same range during a cycle (obviously up and down but no major change in the mean reading). I have noticed this myself. Adding an AI has removed gyno for me in the past. This was not in my head. If there was another mechanism in action then I don't know but it wasn't insulin resistance in my case.

I should also state I would always go with a SERM (I think tamoxifen is great) for getting rid of gyno. The clue is in the name "selective estrogen receptor modulator" meaning it's selective so acts as an antagonist and an agonist of the estrogen receptor. It does a great job at blocking estrogen in breast tissue. I once had mild gyno I stupidly left years ago (not sure why) and it became quite bad and hurt etc. I had it for approx 9 months and within a few days of nolva (20mg) it had gone. These days I don't have any issues with gyno.

 

[Elvia1023]

I'd just like to chime in and remind everyone that minimizing AI use and not tanking E2 is one of the main things the majority of us have been saying for the last 5+ years. This comes after we all figured out how bad NOT controlling E2 was, 10+ years ago.

This doctor seems to have just stumbled upon the idea that we have known forever, taking E2 too low is bad, if not worse, than having it too high.

He definitely thinks all bodybuilders are meathead idiots. I got bored of the video due to his tone but listened to it all.

 

[thebigbus]

He definitely thinks all bodybuilders are meathead idiots. I got bored of the video due to his tone but listened to it all.

Yeah, the video was interesting but just as annoying. And the host seemed like a moron, just giggling when the physician would bring up the bad studies. He obviously (the host) has little knowledge on the subject himself.

I DO find merit in picking apart the poorly done or poorly interpreted studies, and am not willing to write off the benefits of estradiol.

I delved into some other research that he mentioned, specifically with prostate cancer and hormone treatment, and it's fascinating. Some docs are now using HIGH dosed testosterone for patients with castrate resistant prostate cancer ir order to "shock" the cancer, and lo and behold the PSA's will fall after a few months. And they've used estradiol to do the same, I believe.

But it says nothing of what long term elevated estradiol will do for a man's health.

I think overall there probably IS a benefit to allowing higher estradiol than we currently do (those "normal" ranges are kind of meaningless based on the patient population used).

But we all need to tread carefully.

 

[Swifto]

We do? Am I out to lunch on this? I thought it only blocks estrogen at the nipple.

One of Tamoxifen's metabolites has been shown to lower estrogen levels. By how much I'm not sure.

Kaladryn will shed more light, I didn't store the study. Cant recall if its on males or females.

Edit: I think its the Endoxifen metabolite. Its been observed to lower ERa protein levels.

 

[Stewie]

We do? Am I out to lunch on this? I thought it only blocks estrogen at the nipple.

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/...etformin-article-seems-terrible-muscle-4.html

Although noted as being a "selective" pro-drug. Tamoxifen exerts it's effects primarily through it's metabolites, rather than the parent drug itself. Several of these metabolites act as aromatase inhibitors. Such as tamoxifens' metabolite, norendoxifen.

 

[Stewie]

Yeah, the video was interesting but just as annoying. And the host seemed like a moron, just giggling when the physician would bring up the bad studies. He obviously (the host) has little knowledge on the subject himself.

I DO find merit in picking apart the poorly done or poorly interpreted studies, and am not willing to write off the benefits of estradiol.

I delved into some other research that he mentioned, specifically with prostate cancer and hormone treatment, and it's fascinating. Some docs are now using HIGH dosed testosterone for patients with castrate resistant prostate cancer ir order to "shock" the cancer, and lo and behold the PSA's will fall after a few months. And they've used estradiol to do the same, I believe.

But it says nothing of what long term elevated estradiol will do for a man's health.

I think overall there probably IS a benefit to allowing higher estradiol than we currently do (those "normal" ranges are kind of meaningless based on the patient population used).

But we all need to tread carefully.

That he is.

 

[Swifto]

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/...etformin-article-seems-terrible-muscle-4.html

Thanks. Forgot I even posted in that thread!

Study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25751283

 

[pickapeck]

There is a boogie man in this that goes beyond estrogen. Many users see water retention and assume the culprit is high estrogens. The reality is it can also be in part from aberrant mineralocorticoid signaling. It is know that most steroids alter this signaling for instance buy interfering with aldosterone signaling. This is specially the case as the dose increases.

Some users may take AIs thinking they are addressing high estrogen issues when the real situation is altered mineral balance and related water retention.

 

[Rogue]

Treat the patient, not the numbers

“Treat the patient, NOT the numbers” What needs to be looked at in the patient/athlete is E response in relation to E receptor cultivation in response previous AAS use. In other words, If a patient/athlete is coming off a 1000mg/week testosterone cycle this individual has now "cultivated" or unregulated their E receptors due to the elevated E in response to higher T levels over a prolonged period of time. At this time the patient/athlete will not exhibit E symptoms because E:T ratio are in check. However, This individual has now cultivated/upgraded their receptors drastically over the average person.
Now, the E trigger or response in this individual to 40 E is exponential to a person with normal E receptor count.
So where is the problem??
The problem lies, when this person will administer an AI in order to control the unpleasant E side effects due to the increased affinity of E on their corresponding cultivated/unregulated receptors. So 10E is giving the same response by triggering all those E receptors present as 140E or more...Not uncommon. E will exhibit ALL its side effects as the patient/athlete will explain they are on a devoted protocol of AI , HCG and serms usually at the end of a cycle when their emotional conduct is also influenced by the effect of E ...exponentially due to having more receptors this this, time in the emotional department.
The problem now arises NOT from the estrogen circulating, as eventually the receptor will down regulate. But now we have a whole set of consequences to deal with from the AI...
First you have suppressed your E level below physiological state by using the AI in response to having so many receptor present and activated so 1 unit of said E is doing the activation of say 80 units of E... even though the E levels may seem within range when reading bloods...
Second as the E receptor down regulate quickly, due to the use of an AI. those E levels being suppressed will slowly have less and less response with time...and now, the lower level of E once deemed "within range" will now exhibit signs of low E and words like "tanked" will come into play on the SAME dose of conservative AI that was working so wonderfully a short time before.
And that is why certain AI's are more unpredictable than others... not on their direct effect on E, but there effect on the E receptor (Suicide AI's).
Third, we now have a new can of worms to deal with and that is the response/rebound of the 5alpa enzyme (Aromatase). In response to AI administration and this is VERY UNPREDICTABLE with too little studies for us to really get a grasp on.
So all this applies across the board, but mainly to patients/athlete with more ambitious goals that for lack of better words blast and cruise...
What about the guy on TRT?
IN A TRT scenario, a REAL one …this can be a little more n=manageable to get a desired response from Testosterone administration. This is especially true if the patient/athlete is NOT coming from a blast/cruise background.
a- A conservative dose is administered, six month NOT LESS latter levels are checked...If E is low... increase the T dose SLIGHTLY.
b- If E is slightly HIGH, but T is in range and by that I mean under 950, maintain dose E will balance out by itself I say this with confidence but you MUST give it TIME.
c- If E is HIGHER than acceptable, don’t panic... reduce the T being administered slightly for now. You well get to titrate upwards SLOWLY, latter as your body adapts.
TRT is a long-term project; it takes time to exhibit its desired effects.
Ai's, Serms and HCG are all important tools in PED protocols but should NOT be a part of an ENGINEERED long term TRT plan, they have there own set of consequences that will affect ultimate homeostasis .
This is just IMO.

 

[smcstevesmc]

But i definitely think AI's are overused. Lots of TRT docs immediately put guys on Adex from the get-go, and I see that as a mistake.

I've had numerous patients come to me who have been on that protocol, and they feel awful, so the first thing we do is stop the Adex and reassess in a few weeks.

My issues is the opposite, at E2=60 I have almost zero sex drive and soft erections and nobody wants to give me any AI.... :banghead: Crazy, because when I self-treat and get it down to 20, I feel great and have more energy too.

 

[smcstevesmc]

As Kal posted estradiol is relative to testosterone. I don't mind my estrogen being high in range especially if my test is high. Obviously no one wants very low estrogen for a variety of reasons.

I agree completely. I believe each man has a ratio of E2:T that works best for them.

For me, I feel best at E2 around 20-30 on TRT, so (for example) if I were to run 1G of test, estrogen doesn't cause me issues unless it gets outside of my 'normal' TRT T:E2 ratio.

I am no doc, but this is my personal experience.


ALSO, E2 versus the other estrogens would be a good study, we know estradiol is the strongest, but how do the other estrogens affect us physically and mentally?

 

[Swifto]

I agree completely. I believe each man has a ratio of E2:T that works best for them.

For me, I feel best at E2 around 20-30 on TRT, so (for example) if I were to run 1G of test, estrogen doesn't cause me issues unless it gets outside of my 'normal' TRT T:E2 ratio.

I am no doc, but this is my personal experience.


ALSO, E2 versus the other estrogens would be a good study, we know estradiol is the strongest, but how do the other estrogens affect us physically and mentally?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4318702/

 

[Kaladryn]

I agree completely. I believe each man has a ratio of E2:T that works best for them.

For me, I feel best at E2 around 20-30 on TRT, so (for example) if I were to run 1G of test, estrogen doesn't cause me issues unless it gets outside of my 'normal' TRT T:E2 ratio.

I am no doc, but this is my personal experience.


ALSO, E2 versus the other estrogens would be a good study, we know estradiol is the strongest, but how do the other estrogens affect us physically and mentally?

Also the fact that AIs often greatly increase other "inactive" estrogens would be interesting to know the full effect of.