New training split, too much rest?

[cashrolling]

I have tried DC for the past few months, loved it, but my size went down, mostly my arms; always been around 19.5 inch, now all the way to 18!!!!So i decided to go back to a high volume (still high intesity), less frequency training, and have my ARMS day back.What i was wondering is if 8-9 days in between training the same muscle group is too long, so i add a few easy sets of a muscle group that was worked on 5 or 6 days before, kinda getting it a "recall" before fully blast it at the 9 day mark, what u guys think?

Day one: ARMS , chest recall( 6 light pump sets)
Day two: LEGS , back recall( 6 light pump sets)
Day three: REST
DAY four: Chest ,shoulder recall( 6 light pump sets)
Day five :Back
Day six: REST
Day seven: Shoulders, legs recall( 6 light pump sets)
Day eight: REST

DAY NINE: START ALL OVER AGAIN

 

[bapperfan]

It all boils down to one thing - whatever works for you! I had a similar experience though - I stopped my push, pull, legs split where I worked each bodypart once in 7 days to try DC. I initially thought I did the right thing, but then my gains slowed down and I actually think in the end, with high intensity and high frequency (as in DC), I was just getting leaner due toall the energy I was burning.
I though, well, I don't want to cut, so I went back to my old split, but ended up feeling like I reached a plateau there eventually too.
The point I have reached now is that I am doing a four way split with each bodypart being worked every 9 days.
Personally, I feel the extra couple of days gives me more recovery time, and so my poundages have started going up again.

I reached the point where you are at now through trial and error, and I am happy with it.
Two more points though, I have a physical job and therefore I need the extra rest, and second I think that the body does adapt to different schedules and that is why a change is good/necessary. It is not that any particular routine does/doesn't work - its just that you need to do what is right for you at the time, and then move on when it stops working, or fails to work to begin with...

 

[cashrolling]

I agree with u Bapperfan, DC gave me strenght and got me leaner as well, probably i can use the strenght gain to my advantage now.But i truly belive that for advanced lifters more volume is needed, blasting the muscle is the key; try to destroy every single fibre, then give it adeguate time to recover.and when i say more volume i dont mean less intesity.......

 

[bapperfan]

I agree with u Bapperfan, DC gave me strenght and got me leaner as well, probably i can use the strenght gain to my advantage now.But i truly belive that for advanced lifters more volume is needed, blasting the muscle is the key; try to destroy every single fibre, then give it adeguate time to recover.and when i say more volume i dont mean less intesity.......

Yeah, I see your point. The one big issue I had with DC is the feeling that I wasn't doing enough exercises per bodypart per workout. Sometimes a few different angles per bodypart make me feel that I have fully exhausted all the fibers available. Example, Doing one mvt for back width, then 1 for back thickness left me feeling - is that it? I just missed the usual 4 exercises for back; and the feeling that I have fully taxed the area. I'd rather do that, then give it a pile of rest, fully recovered for the next time I hit that bodypart...

 

[tkav1980]

Here's what I noticed when I gave DC a year. At first, in the first 2 months I did lose some size and I leaned out. I was about to give it up until I took a second look at my diet. Once I realized that I was simply underfed for the amount of work DC requires the gains came along nicely.

I eventually stopped DC cause I'm an information junkie and wanted to learn something new and I'm sure my ADD didn't help either. IMO, most problems people have with DC is diet related/not able to produce the intensity required for it to be effective. I really believe that unless your cramming down 400+ G protien a day DC is going to be tough for most people to pull of the way it's designed. It's a great program for lots of fast mass but the devil is really in the details with that program.

 

[richiec]

Here's what I noticed when I gave DC a year. At first, in the first 2 months I did lose some size and I leaned out. I was about to give it up until I took a second look at my diet. Once I realized that I was simply underfed for the amount of work DC requires the gains came along nicely.

I eventually stopped DC cause I'm an information junkie and wanted to learn something new and I'm sure my ADD didn't help either. IMO, most problems people have with DC is diet related/not able to produce the intensity required for it to be effective. I really believe that unless your cramming down 400+ G protien a day DC is going to be tough for most people to pull of the way it's designed. It's a great program for lots of fast mass but the devil is really in the details with that program.

Great post tkav! Bapper and Cash, it isn't the workout program causing the size loss, it is your diet. DC is high intensity and requires A LOT of energy exertion. If you want to gain size, increase cals or dose, simple as that

 

[cashrolling]

Great post tkav! Bapper and Cash, it isn't the workout program causing the size loss, it is your diet. DC is high intensity and requires A LOT of energy exertion. If you want to gain size, increase cals or dose, simple as that

I agree with u to some extend, but i also belive some people just need a different approach.I eat plenty enuff to grow, i have been doing this for 17 years so i know a few things, but it was just too little muscle busting work, i need more sets.Now dont get me wrong, i train higher volume, but the intensity is as high as in the DC training, the only thing that changes is the amount of sets to failure, not just 2 or 3, but 7 or 8 for each muscle group, and then more time to rest.But as we know we all different, so im just sharing my experience.

 

[PitbullTank]

i am a FIRM believer that the more times a year you can stimulate muscle growth, repair, and do it again...the better results u will have..if your chest is fully recovered in 3 4 or even 5 days....what benefit would u get waiting more days?

 

[cashrolling]

i am a FIRM believer that the more times a year you can stimulate muscle growth, repair, and do it again...the better results u will have..if your chest is fully recovered in 3 4 or even 5 days....what benefit would u get waiting more days?

Yeh u right, but how do we know for sure when we fully recovered?And also i dont belive that at an advanced level, we only need 2-3 sets to destroy all the muscle fibres. But i guess we will never know for sure, just do what works for u!!!

 

[PitbullTank]

Yeh u right, but how do we know for sure when we fully recovered?

u dont know when ur recovered?

 

[tkav1980]

Phil Hernon posted a piece of research on here some time ago showing muscle's ability to recover in a time frame relative to the work load(in terms of volume) imposed upon it. If i remember correctly 5 sets to failure was something like 48 hrs, and 6 sets jumped way up to something like 96 hrs. I can't exactly quote the study or its parameters, but I'll do my best to find the origional post which had all of the information.


It may be something worth reading so I'll go have a look and see if I can dig it up.

 

[cashrolling]

Phil Hernon posted a piece of research on here some time ago showing muscle's ability to recover in a time frame relative to the work load(in terms of volume) imposed upon it. If i remember correctly 5 sets to failure was something like 48 hrs, and 6 sets jumped way up to something like 96 hrs. I can't exactly quote the study or its parameters, but I'll do my best to find the origional post which had all of the information.


It may be something worth reading so I'll go have a look and see if I can dig it up.

Very interesting , i hope u find it.I do belive that the more sets to failure are performed, the more fibers we break down, therefore more time needed to recover and a better growth.
PitbullTank, i do feel like i recover in 4-5 days after intense volume workout, but what we feel might not be what it is.

 

[MrDeflation]

also depends on if you are talking about muscle recovery or CNS recovery imo

 

[bapperfan]

i am a FIRM believer that the more times a year you can stimulate muscle growth, repair, and do it again...the better results u will have..if your chest is fully recovered in 3 4 or even 5 days....what benefit would u get waiting more days?

I think it is just the cumulative stress on the nervous system that seems to add up over time, which is why the added rest (for me anyhow) is preferable. With my once every 9 days per bodypart approach I can blast over long periods as oppesed to a blast, cruise approach, which is what DC requires... (and I am talking training here, not gear)

 

[PitbullTank]

Very interesting , i hope u find it.I do belive that the more sets to failure are performed, the more fibers we break down, therefore more time needed to recover and a better growth.
PitbullTank, i do feel like i recover in 4-5 days after intense volume workout, but what we feel might not be what it is.

what i was trying to get at was that you can do 20 sets to failure and maybe take 8 or 9 days to recover...but that is still ONE cycle of stimulate, rest, and repair...and its takin you 9 days to do so in full...that will be only 40 training sessions per muscle per year....stimulation + correct nutrients+ rest/recovery + hormones equal muscle = growth rite? it would seem to me, that if you cut the volume down to(just for example) 10 sets, and it only took 4.5 days to recover...you are now in the cycle of stimulating, resting, and repairing 81x per year..if you could work the same muscle every 3 days-with 1/2 the work and have 122 cycles of stimulate rest repair...

i think everyones goal should be to find out exactly how much volume and frequency they can get away with, while not overtraining...you MUST be able to read when your body is telling you its overtrained and adjust....i have found that with my specific training right now....i can be fully recovered in ~3days if im doing 3 exercises per big muscle w 2 working sets....and 2 exercises for smaller muscles w 2 working sets...

if i were to find myself feeling overtrained at 3 exercises, 2 work sets per 3 days...my first thing would be to goto either 2 exercises, or goto just 1 work set for each.... like i said...i am firm believer of trying to stimulate, rest, and repair my muscle as often as humanly possible...if i could take shit that would actaully fully recover me in 1-2 days...than id use it and train ED...still trying to find my perfect little balance, but playing w the volume/frequency is pretty fun...

also, the 1st sentence in your quote here is abit misleading..."the more sets to failure, the more fibers we break down"....this is not exactly true...lets say ur record was 19 sets of 100 pushups....now, you do 20 sets of 100 pushups in a short time... guarenteed u will FAIL many many times...u will b very very sore the next few days...but do you think you actually caused trauma in tha muscle that forced it to adapt and become larger for growth , compared to your personal record of 6 reps on 355 bench...now you hit 375 for 6....do you think the more sets is gonna cause a larger chest than progression of that big weight??

 

[richiec]

I agree with u to some extend, but i also belive some people just need a different approach.I eat plenty enuff to grow, i have been doing this for 17 years so i know a few things, but it was just too little muscle busting work, i need more sets.Now dont get me wrong, i train higher volume, but the intensity is as high as in the DC training, the only thing that changes is the amount of sets to failure, not just 2 or 3, but 7 or 8 for each muscle group, and then more time to rest.But as we know we all different, so im just sharing my experience.

Yeh u right, but how do we know for sure when we fully recovered?QUOTE]

Cash, please look at the 2 bolded parts. You've been doing this for 17 yrs, but you don't know when you're fully recovered??????????

You obviously didn't do DC the way you are supposed to. You are doing 7-8 sets per muscle group to failure? Then you aren't truly going to failure on each one! When I was DC training, I could not do another rep after my set. When I did incline BB press, I couldn't do any kind of chest movements afterwards. I had nothing left to do it, I was beat. After squats, I could barely walk. You are supposed to take it to FAILURE with the heaviest weight you can do for the desired rep range. If you do this correctly, you won't have any energy left to do any more sets. You then, have to EAT to grow, or increase your hormones. Yes, we are all different, and I guess you're that 1% of guys who don't respond to a tried and true program??? When I ran DC, I didn't just get stronger, I gained size. I was always hungry due to busting my ass in the gym. I dragged myself out of the gym each time and went to refill my tank

 

[PitbullTank]

Yeh u right, but how do we know for sure when we fully recovered?QUOTE]

Cash, please look at the 2 bolded parts. You've been doing this for 17 yrs, but you don't know when you're fully recovered??????????

You obviously didn't do DC the way you are supposed to. You are doing 7-8 sets per muscle group to failure? Then you aren't truly going to failure on each one! When I was DC training, I could not do another rep after my set. When I did incline BB press, I couldn't do any kind of chest movements afterwards. I had nothing left to do it, I was beat. After squats, I could barely walk. You are supposed to take it to FAILURE with the heaviest weight you can do for the desired rep range. If you do this correctly, you won't have any energy left to do any more sets. You then, have to EAT to grow, or increase your hormones. Yes, we are all different, and I guess you're that 1% of guys who don't respond to a tried and true program??? When I ran DC, I didn't just get stronger, I gained size. I was always hungry due to busting my ass in the gym. I dragged myself out of the gym each time and went to refill my tank

to be fair, he said hes "now" at 7-8...he was at 2-3 sets per exercise, which is still NOT really DC training....how the hell could you possibly hit a personal record for reps on squats...then bust a 20 repper with weight you have NEVER done yet...THENNNNNN do another few sets??? i just dont see how if you are truely BEATING YOUR LOGBOOK you could possibly have any gas left in tha tank for "extra" work...

if you dont mind cash.... do you happen to have any starting and finishing #s to a few of your exercises you were doing while doing DC for those months?

 

[cashrolling]

ok, to be fair i make myself cleare, i LOVED DC, i like the way it structured.i know i did it properly, going to failure the way i was supposed to on rest pause sets, yet i felt like i wasn't doing enuff( this happen to many people), but i stick to it.I didnt say it didnt work, it did, mostly my back and chest strenght increased a lot; and the overall shape.I was probabl not eating enough, this would explain that i didnt gain any size, but i improved my body composition and shape greatly.What really got me down is the arms downsizing, in all these years arms have been my strongest point, usually keeping them steady at 19-20 inch, so why for the first time in more than 10 years my arms went back to 18???This made me think that DC ( at least for me) dont stress the smaller muscle groups enough, shoulders as well. So what do u think of changing the orders of thing, probably once i reach arms they are too beaten already, why dont do them first?
Im not arguing DC training, as i said , i like it, im just trying to understand better a few points and see if anyone had the same problems.
By the way, DC really makes sense, im so tempted to just stick with it and find a way to modify the arms workouts........Its nice to still get confused about things after so many years into the game.

 

[tkav1980]

ok, to be fair i make myself cleare, i LOVED DC, i like the way it structured.i know i did it properly, going to failure the way i was supposed to on rest pause sets, yet i felt like i wasn't doing enuff( this happen to many people), but i stick to it.I didnt say it didnt work, it did, mostly my back and chest strenght increased a lot; and the overall shape.I was probabl not eating enough, this would explain that i didnt gain any size, but i improved my body composition and shape greatly.What really got me down is the arms downsizing, in all these years arms have been my strongest point, usually keeping them steady at 19-20 inch, so why for the first time in more than 10 years my arms went back to 18???This made me think that DC ( at least for me) dont stress the smaller muscle groups enough, shoulders as well. So what do u think of changing the orders of thing, probably once i reach arms they are too beaten already, why dont do them first?
Im not arguing DC training, as i said , i like it, im just trying to understand better a few points and see if anyone had the same problems.
By the way, DC really makes sense, im so tempted to just stick with it and find a way to modify the arms workouts........Its nice to still get confused about things after so many years into the game.

The decrease in arm size may be due to the fact that they were a former strong point. In my experience people no matter how good they think they do with everything tend to put even more effort into strong points or bodyparts they like training the most. Its a psychological thing. Now Dante has addressed bring up weak points with widow makers, wierd exercises...etc. However if there is a decrease in size but more strength and beating the log book every week the initial reaction to me is there has to be a diet issue. I'd read up on how Dante makes tweaks to bring up lagging bodyparts, that may offer some insight to your dilema.

As for feeling like you didnt do enough. Well, I have heard that more than once and even felt that way myself on occasion. Unfortunately for people it's really hard to put that aside and trust the structure of the program. But trusting that is how to make the program actually work. It's not like DC is the only effective training protocal out there. Even Dante himself said the best program is the one you believe in and stick to for years and years, working it over and over and beating a log book in some fashion for 10+ years. Thats where results come from, Not because DC is some magic training program. If you don't trust the DC protocal, simply don't do DC. Play with your own program until you find a balance you like, however with the program you proposed in your initial post, I PERSONALLY feel 7 days is plenty of recovery time for you. No need for 9 days but take that with a grain of salt. I don;t know you, I don't know how well you recover, and I dont know all the details of your diet or supplement useage.

Hope that helps.

 

[richiec]

ok, to be fair i make myself cleare, i LOVED DC, i like the way it structured.i know i did it properly, going to failure the way i was supposed to on rest pause sets, yet i felt like i wasn't doing enuff( this happen to many people), but i stick to it.I didnt say it didnt work, it did, mostly my back and chest strenght increased a lot; and the overall shape.I was probabl not eating enough, this would explain that i didnt gain any size, but i improved my body composition and shape greatly.What really got me down is the arms downsizing, in all these years arms have been my strongest point, usually keeping them steady at 19-20 inch, so why for the first time in more than 10 years my arms went back to 18???This made me think that DC ( at least for me) dont stress the smaller muscle groups enough, shoulders as well. So what do u think of changing the orders of thing, probably once i reach arms they are too beaten already, why dont do them first?
Im not arguing DC training, as i said , i like it, im just trying to understand better a few points and see if anyone had the same problems.
By the way, DC really makes sense, im so tempted to just stick with it and find a way to modify the arms workouts........Its nice to still get confused about things after so many years into the game.

From what I experienced doing DC training, there isn't an emphasis on "smaller" muscle groups. When I think of DC training, I think of this: Pack on muscle and don't worry how it looks, save that for cutting/contest prep. DC training, if done correctly with training and eating, will pack on muscle fast. It may not be "pretty", but it will put the muscle on. It's a meat and potatoes program, not a fine tuning program. Put the muscle on the big areas, and then work on the smaller areas (weakness').

I personally do not think you should modify it. I think you need to take a step back and rexamine your approach to it. You obviously don't think it will work based on what you've already stated. You need to go in the gym with a determination to absolutely destroy your body with each set. When you leave the gym, feed your body what it needs to grow.

TKAV said it perfect, you've probably been hitting your arms hard bc you think they're your best part. I know a lot of guys who love working arms, but disregard most everything else. They have no legs, no chest, no back, just arms.