nipple pain/how much nolva

[Mad Matt]

Without doubt its far better to control estrogen from the beginning...

However that said i honestly believe that this myth about using nolva with tren and deca is just that, "a myth". Yes i can show you studies where nolva has been used and works very well at down regulating pr induced gyno, i just cant find them at this time so will post them later......

The difference is the studies i have were done on healthy people as apposed to cancerous patients...

Please be patient i will find these studies...

 

[Bigfella]

Without doubt its far better to control estrogen from the beginning...

However that said i honestly believe that this myth about using nolva with tren and deca is just that, "a myth". Yes i can show you studies where nolva has been used and works very well at down regulating pr induced gyno, i just cant find them at this time so will post them later......

The difference is the studies i have were done on healthy people as apposed to cancerous patients...

Please be patient i will find these studies...

No problem bud, looking forward to them.

Will be interesting to see whether they were performed whilst still dosing with the Deca/Tren and other aromatising steroids and at what point the down-regulation occurred (as this was noted during some of the Cancer studies but only after an initial rise which could/would be damaging in the case of an active gyno condition present)

For the record I think Nolva is excellent at controlling gyno from estrogen and actually reversing gyno no matter what the initial cause, but I have doubts about its suitability during the dosing of Tren or Deca along with other aromatising/estrogen raising steroids.



Bigfella.

 

[Stewie]

Wouldn't lowering SHBG, with something like, proviron, winstrol, anavar or masteron making FT more Bio available by reducing E/E2 at the AR site or tissue bound, still run AI and intro the Serm if needed? Help with gyno related issues?

IMO this is why its a good idea to see where one's hormonal levels are prior to a cycle.

 

[Swifto]

The people who tend to argue Tamoxifen will worsen progesterone related gyno post studies dont on the female endometrium (uterus) where Tamoxifen behaves as an agonist, not antagonist in this tissue, or post studies done on cancer patients.

The studies done on normal healthy subjects examining Tamoxifen's effects on estrogen and progesterone, show down regulation of both receptors.

Along with numerous practical real world experiences studies like this below mate

J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2005 May;95(1-5):83-9.

Aromatase inhibitors: cellular and molecular effects.Miller WR, Anderson TJ, White S, Larionov A, Murray J, Evans D, Krause A, Dixon JM.

Breast Unit, Western General Hospital, Edinburgh, Scotland, UK. [email protected]Marked cellular and molecular changes may occur in breast cancers following treatment of postmenopausal breast cancer patients with aromatase inhibitors. Neoadjuvant protocols, in which treatment is given with the primary tumour still within the breast, are particularly illuminating. In Edinburgh, we have shown that 3 months treatment with either anastrozole, exemestane or letrozole produces pathological responses in the majority of oestrogen receptor (ER)-rich tumours (39/59) as manifested by reduced cellularity/increased fibrosis. Changes in histological grading may also take place, most notably a reduction in mitotic figures. This probably reflects an influence on proliferation as most tumours (82%) show a marked decrease in the proliferation marker, Ki67. These effects are generally more dramatic than seen with tamoxifen given in the same setting. Differences between aromatase inhibitors and tamoxifen are also apparent in changes in steroid hormone expression. Thus, immuno-staining for progesterone receptor (PgR) is reduced in almost all cases by aromatase inhibitors, becoming undetectable in many. This contrasts with effects of tamoxifen in which the most common change on PgR is to increase expression. Changes in proliferation occur rapidly following the onset of exposure to aromatase inhibitors. Thus, neoadjuvant studies with letrozole in which tumour was sampled before and after 14 days and 3 months treatment show that decreased expression of Ki67 occur at 14 days and, in many cases, the effect is greater at 14 days than 3 months. These early changes precede evidence of clinical response but do not predict for it. However, this study design has allowed RNA analysis of sequential biopsies taken during the neoadjuvant therapy. Based on clustering techniques, it has been possible to subdivide tumours into groups showing distinct patterns of molecular changes. These changes in tumour gene expression may allow definition of tumour cohorts with differing sensitivity to aromatase inhibitors and permit early recognition of response and resistance.

Bigfella.

Breast cancer patients...

Increase of progesterone receptor by tamoxifen as a hormonal challenge test in breast cancer.Namer M, Lalanne C, Baulieu EE.Abstract
In 25 cases of postmenopausal breast cancer, estradiol receptor (ER) and progesterone receptor (PR) were measured in cutaneous metastatic nodules before and after administration of 30 mg of tamoxifen per day for 1 week. No response was recorded in ER-poor cases. However, in tumors containing greater than 10 fmol ER per mg cytosol protein, 6 of 14 cases showed an increase in PR of greater than 30 fmol/mg cytosol protein. The presence or absence of PR before administration of tamoxifen did not discriminate systematically between hormone-responsive and nonresponsive tumors. These findings demonstrate in vivo that biochemical changes brought about by an agent binding to ER can be observed only in ER-positive cases. In addition they suggest that, in these ER-positive cases responding to tamoxifen by increase of PR, the simultaneous or sequential administration of both antiestrogen (rescuing PR) and progestagen (decreasing PR) may allow better hormonal control of the disease.

Again, breast cancer patients...

No mate because as you know, no-one is going to fund a study like that just to suit us.
I have personally experienced worsening of gyno with Nolvadex (only where Tren or Deca were concerned) and have dealt with many other BBers on the boards I Moderate who also experienced the same. Nolvadex is the perfect preventative med for estrogen related gyno and not everyone has issues with gyno from progesterone, I would suggest that in your case, your gyno was purely estrogen related and hence cured with Nolva.

Of course the studies are not, as they never are 100% based on what we want, but we can draw conclusions or learn some possible preventions from the data they provide, the fact that it has shown in some cases to increase PR activity would suggest that it is possible agreed? The fact that some of us are very gyno prone and need to avoid excesses of estrogen and progesterone activity would suggest again that the best course of action be to use an AI as the control method which eliminates both problems in one and to avoid the use of something which as I originally stated may actually make things worse.

Bigfella

Here is a quote from the study, ""shows no stimulatory activity on either PgR levels, a well known oestrogen regulated protein..or the important parameter of cell proliferation ." when Tamoxifen was given to normal healthy subjects on breast tissue.

As above I will stand by my preferred method of treatment which is using an AI in those cycles, because with no elevated estrogen there is no chance of gyno as progesterone alone cannot cause it. I have experienced as have many others gyno that Nolva wasn't touching, but switching to Letro cleared straight away.
A quick Google search would find many similar users which you have apparently not come accross personally mate and probably just like myself wished that Nolva alone would work, but it doesn't. Even in that breast Cancer study it showed some PR lowered, some stayed the same and some elevated proving that responses are not all the same, we are all different and I cannot see the point of taking the risk if there are other ways which will definitely work quickly.

Do you have a link to that study mentioned from the cut n pasted quotes above?

Bigfella.

To quote slightly more from the above study (below).

"The observation that PR status is different in response to tamoxifen depending on the normal and tumour breast tissue is highly important. In normal epithelial breast tissue, tamoxifen downregulates PR, while in breast cancer tissue it upregulates the receptor, which indicates that tamoxifen plays a greater agonistic effect in tumour tissue than in normal tissue.

In the present study, ERa and PR expressions decreased significantly on the normal breast tissue (epithelium) of patients receiving 5, 10 or 20 mg/day of tamoxifen for 50 days compared with the placebo group. The important finding was that low doses of tamoxifen decreased ERa and PR expression to levels observed with the standard dose of tamoxifen."

Fair enough, we're not female... Post postmenopausal either, but this shows a far more accurate insight into how Tamoxifen behaves in normal healthy breast tissue, when compared to cancerous breast tissue.

The progesterone receptor is synthesised in response to the estrogen receptor in breast tissue, hence the down regulatory effect Tamoxifen shows.

 

[Bigfella]

Yeah sure enough mate, but the point of that I had already mentioned is the evidence of downregulation is following a 50 day study of dosing patterns, it doesn't mean that initial response wasn't the opposite. Would be interesting to see daily values or similar which are more important to those who are dealing with gyno, it is no good it being ok in weeks time if initially it gets worse.

I have been using AAS extensively for many years and unfortunately am gyno prone, but in particular worse with cycles containing Deca or Tren along with Test and or D-bol. I had to do a lot of research and self trails to see what worked and can promise you that running Nolvadex throughout a cycle of the above doesn't prevent gyno onset and does nothing (or at least in the short-term where it is needed) to stop it, whereas AI's have stopped things dead very quickly everytime.

Nolva works perfectly for any cycles I run containing only estrogen and is also fine post any cycle once hormone levels have fallen.

I have come accross many others over the years and there are many posts around the boards showing that what I experience is not unique to me, so for me, there is definitely something in that Nolvadex dosing during cycles with progestins and excess estrogen doesn't prevent or cure gyno at least it doesn't in all cases and hence IMO it is still far wiser for those known to be gyno prone to go with the AI in the first place during those cycles.

Until we have a study that documents exactly this phenomenon, it is impossible to say with any clarity why it happens as there is still much that we only can assume and suggest from the limited study data we have, but the full mechanisms and interactions for gyno itself regarding progesterone/estrogen/prolactin etc are still not fully know and understood.

Bigfella.

 

[Bigfella]

BTW do you have a copy of the full study Swifto?

Interesting topic anyway gents, would love to find a definitive answer but pretty doubtful of that TBH

Bigfella.

 

[Bigfella]

Just realised there was a link in the post bud, sorry! It isn't particularly conclusive where we are concerned though is it? and not performed on a large cross section of individuals...............Its a shame but doubt anyone will fund any of the studies we would like to see anytime in the future.

Did you not find this part interesting?

"Although our current study
was largely performed on postmenopausal women, two samples
removed from tamoxifen-treated premenopausal women
also showed no evidence of elevated rates of cell proliferation.
The ER and PgR values recorded in these specimens,
however, were above the median values for the group in both
ducts and lobules."

Bigfella.