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No longer feeling DNP work towards the end?

Of course, we cannot rely on sophisticated equipment to measure RMR or total body water.

Note the commonality between these factors: in case of either, medication was continued until weight loss halted.

What you describe may be related more to factor 1 or 2, but weight loss still proceeds.

Once weight loss halts, by the logic presented, one would take up to 2 weeks off before reinitiating a DNP course. Factor 1 can be distinguished at this time from factor 2, because edema/retained water will come off very quickly, whereas it'll take 2 weeks to reacquire drug sensitivity.

Another follow up if you don't mind..

Does using sodium bicarbonate while on DNP decrease effectiveness at all? May seem like a dum question but once I started using it the labored breathing is completely gone and that was basically governing my dosages.

Here's a reddit link discussing dnp and Hyperkalemia

 
Another follow up if you don't mind..

Does using sodium bicarbonate while on DNP decrease effectiveness at all? May seem like a dum question but once I started using it the labored breathing is completely gone and that was basically governing my dosages.

Here's a reddit link discussing dnp and Hyperkalemia

My initial thinking is that sodium bicarbonate ingestion presents a double-edged sword. It can reduce mitochondrial respiration (e.g., post-anaerobic exercise bout) & serve as a lactate buffering and metabolic alkaline agent to reduce symptoms of hyperlactacidemia. Since DNP by uncoupling of oxidative phosphorylation ⇒ ↑↑O₂ consumption (reflects ↑RMR) & ADP:ATP ratio, it ↑lactate synthesis (due to a compensatory ↑glycolysis due to low ATP). As such, it causes hyperventilation (highly ergolytic, or performance worsening) & hyperlactacidemia.

Unfortunately, since hyperventilation is the sine qua non of the increase to RMR, if sodium bicarbonate ingestion reduces it to some extent, that degree of change basically reflects the degree of diminished efficacy.

To opine, I think that you'd be so much better off using a lower dose that is tolerable, if you use this stuff at all. I hate seeing these whack-a-mole self-experiments with chemicals to try to treat the effects of other chemicals, with confusion between direct & side effects, and all that entails.

Anyway, to remark on the Reddit post (Reddit is just the worst source of information): this has absolutely nothing to do with the Na/K pump or hyperkalemia, and the reason that there's not a shred of evidence to suggest it as a DNP effect in the literature is because DNP does not have this effect, and not because obese patients (Simkins' 1930s work) have some drastically lower potassium intake versus a bodybuilder (the ol' wE aRe EnHaNcEd BoDyBuiIlDeRs fallacy) - so that Reddit post is just broscience. Someone happened upon some apparent effects of sodium bicarbonate ingestion while using DNP and tried to work backwards inductively to explain why that might be, but erred.
 
My initial thinking is that sodium bicarbonate ingestion presents a double-edged sword. It can reduce mitochondrial respiration (e.g., post-anaerobic exercise bout) & serve as a lactate buffering and metabolic alkaline agent to reduce symptoms of hyperlactacidemia. Since DNP by uncoupling of oxidative phosphorylation ⇒ ↑↑O₂ consumption (reflects ↑RMR) & ADP:ATP ratio, it ↑lactate synthesis (due to a compensatory ↑glycolysis due to low ATP). As such, it causes hyperventilation (highly ergolytic, or performance worsening) & hyperlactacidemia.

Unfortunately, since hyperventilation is the sine qua non of the increase to RMR, if sodium bicarbonate ingestion reduces it to some extent, that degree of change basically reflects the degree of diminished efficacy.

To opine, I think that you'd be so much better off using a lower dose that is tolerable, if you use this stuff at all. I hate seeing these whack-a-mole self-experiments with chemicals to try to treat the effects of other chemicals, with confusion between direct & side effects, and all that entails.

Anyway, to remark on the Reddit post (Reddit is just the worst source of information): this has absolutely nothing to do with the Na/K pump or hyperkalemia, and the reason that there's not a shred of evidence to suggest it as a DNP effect in the literature is because DNP does not have this effect, and not because obese patients (Simkins' 1930s work) have some drastically lower potassium intake versus a bodybuilder (the ol' wE aRe EnHaNcEd BoDyBuiIlDeRs fallacy) - so that Reddit post is just broscience. Someone happened upon some apparent effects of sodium bicarbonate ingestion while using DNP and tried to work backwards inductively to explain why that might be, but erred.

Again, thank you. I had this little voice in my head saying "this just makes it (using dnp) too easy..."
 
Of course, we cannot rely on sophisticated equipment to measure RMR or total body water.

Note the commonality between these factors: in case of either, medication was continued until weight loss halted.

What you describe may be related more to factor 1 or 2, but weight loss still proceeds.

Once weight loss halts, by the logic presented, one would take up to 2 weeks off before reinitiating a DNP course. Factor 1 can be distinguished at this time from factor 2, because edema/retained water will come off very quickly, whereas it'll take 2 weeks to reacquire drug sensitivity.
The DNP is still working, but T4 to T3 conversion has decreased (the cause for the decreased RMR). Duchaine discussed this years ago when he reintroduced DNP to the game. To overcome this, you either have to go cold turkey for some time and eat carbs to get hepatic conversion of T4-T3 upregulated or add T3 to your DNP cycle when fat loss stalls.
 
The DNP is still working, but T4 to T3 conversion has decreased (the cause for the decreased RMR). Duchaine discussed this years ago when he reintroduced DNP to the game. To overcome this, you either have to go cold turkey for some time and eat carbs to get hepatic conversion of T4-T3 upregulated or add T3 to your DNP cycle when fat loss stalls.
Well, OK then. Here I was thinking I had a fair bit of knowledge on the topic. I am enamored... no - humbled - by your cocksuredness.

Can you refer me to the original source of this claim by Dan that DNP's decreased RMR with long-term use is due to decreased T4 to T3 conversion? Since I have, insofar as I am aware, everything that he's ever made available to the public, it's just curious that I don't recall something like this from him, given my affinity for his work.

I am surprised to learn from you that eating carbohydrates overcomes DNP's effects on thyroid binding. Could you walk me through that process?

I am also surprised to learn from you that Cytomel is efficacious at overcoming this phenomenon of decreased RMR with long-term DNP use, by any mechanism other than by its own uncoupling of electron transport from ATP synthesis, e.g., by UCP-3. Please walk me through that, as well, if you could.

Here I was in agreement with conciliator (since we're appealing to authority and flexing our knowledge of 90s - 2000s era bodybuilding material) that DNP's effects on thyroid function are not biologically significant, because DNP's effects on the proton pump and energy gradient of oxidative phosphorylation, ATPase, etc. - (that would seem rather more significant than thyroid activity on RMR) - are not affected by any decreased binding for T4 or T3 or changes in thyroid hormone levels.
 
My bad. It's been years since I read this and I realize now that I was thinking about clenbuterol.

As for DNP, there is evidence it decreases T4-T3 conversion, but as you allude to, it's effects would be overpowered by DNPs uncoupling effects.

 
My initial thinking is that sodium bicarbonate ingestion presents a double-edged sword. It can reduce mitochondrial respiration (e.g., post-anaerobic exercise bout) & serve as a lactate buffering and metabolic alkaline agent to reduce symptoms of hyperlactacidemia. Since DNP by uncoupling of oxidative phosphorylation ⇒ ↑↑O₂ consumption (reflects ↑RMR) & ADP:ATP ratio, it ↑lactate synthesis (due to a compensatory ↑glycolysis due to low ATP). As such, it causes hyperventilation (highly ergolytic, or performance worsening) & hyperlactacidemia.

Unfortunately, since hyperventilation is the sine qua non of the increase to RMR, if sodium bicarbonate ingestion reduces it to some extent, that degree of change basically reflects the degree of diminished efficacy.

To opine, I think that you'd be so much better off using a lower dose that is tolerable, if you use this stuff at all. I hate seeing these whack-a-mole self-experiments with chemicals to try to treat the effects of other chemicals, with confusion between direct & side effects, and all that entails.

Anyway, to remark on the Reddit post (Reddit is just the worst source of information): this has absolutely nothing to do with the Na/K pump or hyperkalemia, and the reason that there's not a shred of evidence to suggest it as a DNP effect in the literature is because DNP does not have this effect, and not because obese patients (Simkins' 1930s work) have some drastically lower potassium intake versus a bodybuilder (the ol' wE aRe EnHaNcEd BoDyBuiIlDeRs fallacy) - so that Reddit post is just broscience. Someone happened upon some apparent effects of sodium bicarbonate ingestion while using DNP and tried to work backwards inductively to explain why that might be, but erred.

So then is it reasonably safe to say - that if we are still getting the unwanted effects (hyperventilation, increased body temperature), our RMR is effectively being raised by the dose we are currently taking?

This is my first cycle of the stuff, and I want to make sure I do it right.
 
I ask because I’m standing here like someone with severe congestive heart failure - out of breath just by talking to someone

If this is all for naught - and my metabolism isn’t being boosted, then fuck this noise lol

Thought I’d mention that I’ve been using this stuff for about 8 weeks straight at 250-500mg a day
 
I have many exp with DNP, WHY 4 weeks, Max 2-3 weeks Not sure the dosing you been consuming have you Pyramided the dose Are you aware the condition utilizing the DNP How dangerous can be.

I prefer 7-10 day runs with DNP so i am not tortured and it doesnt throw off my lifting for long. 4 weeks on DNP is crazy to me. Even on a low doze of 250mg ed for that long on a calorie deficit, you can melt off a quick 6-7 lbs of pure fat with just a calorie deficit.
 
I ask because I’m standing here like someone with severe congestive heart failure - out of breath just by talking to someone

If this is all for naught - and my metabolism isn’t being boosted, then fuck this noise lol

Thought I’d mention that I’ve been using this stuff for about 8 weeks straight at 250-500mg a day
I have been running 250 every night for two weeks and I'm barely sweating though I have the ac on and a big fan hitting me directly.Fat loss has been great in a deficit just low carb low fat high protein.I ran two caps twice but the sweating was unbearable.Maintaining strength just dropped the volume.So is there factual evidence it looses effectiveness after a couple weeks?
 
I have been running 250 every night for two weeks and I'm barely sweating though I have the ac on and a big fan hitting me directly.Fat loss has been great in a deficit just low carb low fat high protein.I ran two caps twice but the sweating was unbearable.Maintaining strength just dropped the volume.So is there factual evidence it looses effectiveness after a couple weeks?
By 3 weeks your body starts to adjust and heat is lower. You still have the fact that it makes you 20%-30% ,less efficient(at the dose you're on)so your metabolic rate is higher.
 
Got it thanks buddy.Might go one more week before a break.Two days at 500 and finish off with 250.Luckily it's been cooler here in southern California.
 
Yeah I’m gonna drop it totally for a couple weeks to restore sensitivity to it - according to the study posted by @Type-IIx

Then put it back in, maybe alternating 250mg eod one week, and off the next week
 
Yeah I’m gonna drop it totally for a couple weeks to restore sensitivity to it - according to the study posted by @Type-IIx

Then put it back in, maybe alternating 250mg eod one week, and off the next week

I don't understand why you would use it after your break for 3-4 doses (EOD for 1 week) then have a week off then repeat so taking 3 or 4 caps every 2 weeks. What are your stats? What are your exact goals? Are you following a diet plan? Do you know your macros/calories?
 
For other people obviously the evidence (and common sense) shows DNP will lose effectiveness over time so taking breaks is smart/beneficial. I want to add though if you are using it for approx 2 weeks and getting good results and wonder if it's worth using another 1-2 weeks don't stop just because of the internet. It's perfectly fine to use for 3-4 weeks and most times it's needed for longer than 1-2 weeks to attain your goals especially if you add it early into dieting like many seem to do.

For the guys who have loads of fat to lose you probably shouldn't be using it so early on that it's going to take months to get all the fat off meaning you have to run it in multiple cycles. Guys who are fat and can't stick to a consistent diet and add DNP at the start of dieting usually end up yoyoing (binging too) and often depend upon it to lose weight. They throw the kitchen sink at it meaning DNP and low calories from the start and whilst the results start off super fast it's only going to slow down and many mistake that for the drug losing effectiveness but it's more so they just aren't going about things the best way.
 
I ask because I’m standing here like someone with severe congestive heart failure - out of breath just by talking to someone

If this is all for naught - and my metabolism isn’t being boosted, then fuck this noise lol

Thought I’d mention that I’ve been using this stuff for about 8 weeks straight at 250-500mg a day
My brother in christ, 8 weeks?!
 
I don't understand why you would use it after your break for 3-4 doses (EOD for 1 week) then have a week off then repeat so taking 3 or 4 caps every 2 weeks. What are your stats? What are your exact goals? Are you following a diet plan? Do you know your macros/calories?

im 5'9 and was 244 this am. probably around 16% bodyfat


basically, my goal is to get shredded for summer. im already using 80mcg clenbuterol, and 37.5mcg t3 and a good amount of TP's GH per day - and have a recumbent bike right in front of my television that i will be using for 30-90minutes per day


this is my first time utilizing dnp, and 500mg of genotec's US dnp has so far basically made the fat fall off at a rate that i didnt think was possible... but not without unwanted effects.


namely - as i previously mentioned, i was struggling to breathe/catch my breath. apparently - according to @Type-IIx's posts, this hyperventilation is a manifestation of a heightened metabolism - which is, of course, what i am after.... but not to such a degree that i feel like i am suffocating.

the research that i've done on this site has led me to conclude that a diet high in lean protein, and very low in everything else (carbs, fats) is the best way to go about utilizing this substance - so im basically eating 400g of protein from very lean sources, and having fish oil and greens powder to cover my other bases.


perhaps i will do 1 pill EOD.. still deciding. i just know that 1 pill ED is too much for me - no matter how great the results are.
 
im 5'9 and was 244 this am. probably around 16% bodyfat


basically, my goal is to get shredded for summer. im already using 80mcg clenbuterol, and 37.5mcg t3 and a good amount of TP's GH per day - and have a recumbent bike right in front of my television that i will be using for 30-90minutes per day


this is my first time utilizing dnp, and 500mg of genotec's US dnp has so far basically made the fat fall off at a rate that i didnt think was possible... but not without unwanted effects.


namely - as i previously mentioned, i was struggling to breathe/catch my breath. apparently - according to @Type-IIx's posts, this hyperventilation is a manifestation of a heightened metabolism - which is, of course, what i am after.... but not to such a degree that i feel like i am suffocating.

the research that i've done on this site has led me to conclude that a diet high in lean protein, and very low in everything else (carbs, fats) is the best way to go about utilizing this substance - so im basically eating 400g of protein from very lean sources, and having fish oil and greens powder to cover my other bases.


perhaps i will do 1 pill EOD.. still deciding. i just know that 1 pill ED is too much for me - no matter how great the results are.

Well just use what you feel most comfortable with. Although if you are using 2 caps now with great results but not surprisingly bad side effects I think after the break taking no more than 1 cap per day will be good for you. You could start at 1 cap EOD and when/if needed go with 1 cap ED but no more. The side effects at that dose should be minimal. There is a big difference between 1 and 2 caps per day as you know. Low carbs helps with side effects but I would have some around training. Everything else looks good.

I would have recommended gradually reducing calories then when you hit a plateau add in the dnp at a low dose and then when you hit another plateau reduce calories further then later increase the dose etc. So you are literally just eating protein all day? I assume mainly meat? Did you gradually lower down to this diet or did you just start with 400g protein and greens powder and fish oil? I would have recommended a more balanced diet and moved down over time to mainly protein and greens to finish off. Your diet is another reason why your progress may stall. How many days are you lifting weights? Are you active away from the 30-90min cardio? What do you eat/drink in a typical day?
 
Well just use what you feel most comfortable with. Although if you are using 2 caps now with great results but not surprisingly bad side effects I think after the break taking no more than 1 cap per day will be good for you. You could start at 1 cap EOD and when/if needed go with 1 cap ED but no more. The side effects at that dose should be minimal. There is a big difference between 1 and 2 caps per day as you know. Low carbs helps with side effects but I would have some around training. Everything else looks good.

I would have recommended gradually reducing calories then when you hit a plateau add in the dnp at a low dose and then when you hit another plateau reduce calories further then later increase the dose etc. So you are literally just eating protein all day? I assume mainly meat? Did you gradually lower down to this diet or did you just start with 400g protein and greens powder and fish oil? I would have recommended a more balanced diet and moved down over time to mainly protein and greens to finish off. Your diet is another reason why your progress may stall. How many days are you lifting weights? Are you active away from the 30-90min cardio? What do you eat/drink in a typical day?

-train PPL EOD
-sedentary job
-400g protein from meat & whey iso
-gradually lowered to this
-diet is mainly chicken breast tenderloins with 1.5-2 gallons of water, fish oil, green powder, and fiber

a buddy of mine worked with a coach who had him eating even less, and doing more cardio, and his fat loss never stalled - even after 6 weeks
 
im 5'9 and was 244 this am. probably around 16% bodyfat


basically, my goal is to get shredded for summer. im already using 80mcg clenbuterol, and 37.5mcg t3 and a good amount of TP's GH per day - and have a recumbent bike right in front of my television that i will be using for 30-90minutes per day


this is my first time utilizing dnp, and 500mg of genotec's US dnp has so far basically made the fat fall off at a rate that i didnt think was possible... but not without unwanted effects.


namely - as i previously mentioned, i was struggling to breathe/catch my breath. apparently - according to @Type-IIx's posts, this hyperventilation is a manifestation of a heightened metabolism - which is, of course, what i am after.... but not to such a degree that i feel like i am suffocating.

the research that i've done on this site has led me to conclude that a diet high in lean protein, and very low in everything else (carbs, fats) is the best way to go about utilizing this substance - so im basically eating 400g of protein from very lean sources, and having fish oil and greens powder to cover my other bases.


perhaps i will do 1 pill EOD.. still deciding. i just know that 1 pill ED is too much for me - no matter how great the results are.
Have you added in pyruvate?
 

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