Non responder - any hope?

[smok44]

I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he’s eating all of that all of the time. If you’re struggling to gain weight, guess what the answer is?

It’s “eat more of it.” Every time. The answer no one wants to hear. If you can’t gain weight on what you’re currently consuming…you need to eat more.

You must have understood incorrectly... I was gaining weight on my last cycle, around 15 pounds in 8 weeks, but it was mostly fat and water... Are you suggesting that if I was eating even more I would suddenly start gaining muscle mass instead of just putting on even more fat....?

 

[pesty4077]

You must have understood incorrectly... I was gaining weight on my last cycle, around 15 pounds in 8 weeks, but it was mostly fat and water... Are you suggesting that if I was eating even more I would suddenly start gaining muscle mass instead of just putting on even more fat....?

I hate to enlighten you, most people will put on mostly fat and water to put a little muscle on. Say out of 15 pounds, 3 pounds was muscle, now do that several times over through the years. 8 weeks is way to fast for you to think you are going to magically grow 10 to 15 pounds of muscle. Then looking at your current diet, I am willing to bet you freak out thinking you just got fat, nothing more and then go back to eating 2700 calories where most people can't grow.

You want to know how I grew when I competed? I trained like an animal and ate a minimum of 5000 calories a day. I didn't care about the fat accumulated as much of how much muscle was put on. I also didn't depend on taking more drugs as the answer. Eat 5000 calories all year, with high protein levels, minimum 1 and 1/2 gram per pound. See a physical therapist for injuries to work out hard as possible Get 8 hours of sleep and stop stressing. Practice meditation if you have too. Be consistent!! If you make excuses, we will be having this same conversation a year to several years down the road

I will add, most people undereat, especially protein, under rest and don't train hard as they think. You want to see who trains hard, watch clips of Tom Platz and Ronnie Coleman. God bless Ronnie Coleman, even with injuries it never slowed him down. Not suggesting you go that extreme, but put the work in first.

 

[luki7788]

if you put on 15 pounds in 8 weeks and all that weight is fat and water without muscle it only means one thing - you're training like a pussy - sorry but I have to be honest

 

[Cerberus777]

Would you eat this way when gaining?

So above maintenance calories, but only carbs around training? No carbs on off days?

Yup. It might not be ideal for everyone. But if I eat 4k calories of chicken and rice I gain a lb of fat with a lb of muscle and hold a shit ton of water. Carbs at workout only I can push calories higher.

 

[Elvia1023]

Obviously without knowing the guy it's impossible to state exactly the reasons but I am sure there are a few. Yes many people have a terrible response to drugs but they don't have no response unless they are using blank products. So to make sure you just use a different source next time but I am sure the original source was gtg. I know you posted your nutrition but I am sure it could have been improved if you just put on fat. Although from what you write it leads me to think it's more a life and training issue. You write you are stressed. How is your sleep? If you are not recovering well it's going to be hard to grow.

I would recommend full blood work especially things like test, estrogen, cortisol, thyroid, wbc, inflammation (crp), liver and kidneys. It 100% sounds like you are not training hard enough. By the way you wrote your reps out exactly I would assume you are not training to failure as well. Not that training to failure is essential but I would 100% recommend lowering your working sets and having 1-2 true failure sets for each exercise so approx 6-12 each session. If you are truly training hard enough that is more than enough. I would keep to training to 4 days per week as that is ideal (generally speaking) as it's training more days than you're not but also allowing adequate recovery time.

 

[qbkilla]

I'm going to be contrarian and say if someone appears to be a nonresponder or very poor responder it's rarely the training. IRL it's rarely the diet either per se from my experience. Of course, if the calories aren't there nothing can happen but people who appear to only put on fat aren't usually uderfed.

I'm with Type II, most here don't seem to appeciate how there are quite a few people who have extremely limited bb potential.

I have no idea how this guy applies what he has written and he could surely improve his results, most could, but if someone doesn't seem to gain with at least some effort chances are that even if everything was optimal they might gain a few tiny pounds more - still not jacked and never will be.

Do you guys know someone who hadn't grown for years but suddenly started growing just by "fixing" their training or diet? I sure don't, not a single one. I know a lot of people who just put on 15lbs of water with drugs and not much else happens, they just get fat if they increase the calories. I'm somewhat like that myself.

I could show a lot of examples. One that immediately comes to mind with his passing is powerlifting guru Louie Simmons and this was not someone with twink genes either. Or take Charles Poliquin. Oh he never tried to become very muscular you say. Doesn't matter imo, the genes were poor.

One pic where he's obviously attempting to gain. Another showing the poor muscle bellies and genes at an older age. And he's not among the worst responders either, far from it.

I am actually in agreement with this, some people do just have shit genetics and nothing can make them look like a mass monster. People always assume "you don't eat, you don't train, hire a coach". I was just saying if it was between diet and training, IMO it was training, because it clearly wasn't his diet for 2 reasons 1. He posted his food he's eating clean enough and 2. he gained a ton of fat when he tried to bulk, so its not like he doesn't know how to gain weight, its just fat.

But I am in agreement with your post.

 

[marssel]

I will tell you what I think it can work.
First stick to test primo cycle. Nothing else. 250 test 400 primo and stay on it for 6 months. Then set up proteins high 300-350 gram a day. Have moderate carb diet 200 around a day and fat 0.6-0.7 per kg of bodyweight. Choose lean proteins mainly and stick to carbs close to workouts. 6 eggs as a last meal. Eat a lot of fruits ! Oatmeal sweet potatoes as your carbs. Dont be shy with cinamon. Add 3 whey shakes 50 grams each between meals so 200 from
Solid food 150 from whey. Always have post workout complex carbs with fruits and 2 grams epa and dhea. Also have a lot of tomato juice with meals and sea salt. Bananas are also important and pineapple with meals.
Training wise
Chest
Back
Off
Shoulders
Legs
Arms
Off
Your first exercises
Chest hammer
Back rows or hammer
Shoulders hammer press
Legs squats
Arms for triceps narrow bench press and ez curls for biceps
Those are your most important exercises where you
will do two working sets and utilise heavy weights with reos range 6-8
Then selections of exercises is up to you but make sure that you hit all rep ranges of movement and use all equipment - dumbells cables etc.
The more isolate exercise the higher the range.
For back 5 exercises 2 sets each
Chest 4 exercises
Shoulders 4
Legs 5
Arms 4 (4triceps 4 biceps)
Abs after every workout.
Log every sessions and MUST beat logbook every time. 3-4 weeks past cant beat logbook- different exercise.
First set nearly to failure second Always to failure. Time between sets? Whatever it takes to beat logbook you need 1 minute? Cool, you need 3? Fine as well.
Get rid of preworkouts
10 grams of eaa before 10 grams after workout- that is your supplementation. Nothing else.
Good luck

Imo you’re way way overthinking things, it’s good to journal but needing to PR every week and nailing yourself to this ritual trainings as opposed to training hard as fuck for FUN, to pump with failure built into almost every set, the second the gym becomes work and not fun imo you’re doomed to fail.

 

[BLang]

Having the genetics to be an IFBB bodybuilder and having the genetics to be the guy in the room who looks like he lifts are two hugely different things.

The number of otherwise-healthy people who can't get to the second level with gear and 2-3 years of properly doing it is very close to zero, IMO.

Charles Poloquin is a pretty bad example IMO. He may have had poor genetics, but he was still going to be that guy who looks like he lifts every time he walks into a room.

People's standards for "big" in these circles is insane. The average guy without serious bodybuilding aspirations will be considered "the guy in great shape" by his friends by adding 10-20lbs of muscle and being reasonably lean. Most people can do that natty, and close to 100% of people can get there on gear within a couple of years when everything else is dialed in.

 

[Sixfoottwo]

I am actually in agreement with this, some people do just have shit genetics and nothing can make them look like a mass monster. People always assume "you don't eat, you don't train, hire a coach". I was just saying if it was between diet and training, IMO it was training, because it clearly wasn't his diet for 2 reasons 1. He posted his food he's eating clean enough and 2. he gained a ton of fat when he tried to bulk, so its not like he doesn't know how to gain weight, its just fat.

But I am in agreement with your post.

But there is quite the humongous difference between a mass monster and not being able to get over 180 lbs at 6ft tall. If he were to be like 225 at sub 8% I'd agree he might just be fucked.

A reason for not gaining might be the fact he gains 15 lbs, feels fat and immediately cuts kcal down to a low number. At least that's what I make of the story. Anyone would lose their gains that whay

 

[BLang]

But there is quite the humongous difference between a mass monster and not being able to get over 180 lbs at 6ft tall. If he were to be like 225 at sub 8% I'd agree he might just be fucked.

A reason for not gaining might be the fact he gains 15 lbs, feels fat and immediately cuts kcal down to a low number. At least that's what I make of the story. Anyone would lose their gains that whay

And add the fact that if he trains like shit he puts on 2lbs of muscle instead of 7 each time he does that and here we are.

 

[KillerStack]

Just some correction on Charles Poliquin, who was a friend of mine.

First, the second picture was when he was in his 50s and riddled with injuries that prevented him from training hard (if at all).

I will say that he had poor genetic structure to "look like a bodybuilder" in that he had very narrow shoulders (bone structure) and very long limbs for his height.

BUT he did have a strong response to gear.

I remember we were having lunch together in Colorado a few years back (probably 10 ish)

He wore a sleeveless shirt and looked like an "old man who used to train". Although he was not "old" at that time (mid 40s). But you know the look: you could see that he used to train hard but the muscles were like deflated remnants of what they used to be.

4 weeks later we were giving a seminar together and when he showed up he looked fucking JACKED! Especially the arms. Very big, shapely and separated (so much better than the first pic you posted). While the arms were impressive, the speed at which he went from the old deflated look, to hard like stone was shocking.

The thing is that Charles actually lost his passion for training once he became more of a businessman. Once he switched to having his own supplement company and giving seminar rather than coaching it's like he stopped caring about training.

He would actually train intermittently. In spurts of 6-8 weeks in which he would train fairly hard then barely train for a few months.

And as I mentioned, at one point he was plagued with some many injuries (especially shoulders) that he just couldn't train hard at all.

As for steroid use. He had a genetic heart problem. Few people know this but he actually had very frequent "mini heart attacks". So he didn't stay on steroids for long (it would actually have been a lot smarter not to use anything at all, especially considering how he died). It was really be on steroids for 4-6 weeks (he was a big fan of anadrol) while training hard. Go off while still training hard for two weeks. Then dramatically reducing training.

He would do this when he wanted/needed to look the part. Until in the end he actually stopped caring as his reputation in his circle was enough to give him credibility during his seminars.

If it were not for these issues, could he have looked like a high-level bodybuilder? No (although he told me, at the height of his career that he would like to do a show, it never materialized). Not because of an incapacity to build muscle, but because he just didn't have the structure.

He also liked to train for strength a lot more than for hypertrophy. He always joked that his average rep number was 2.7 reps per set. Which, while an exaggeration, was not far from the truth. And we do know that it is not the best way to build maximum size (and it's a good way to get those injuries if done all the time, especially with the structure he had).

Your general point tha some people just don't have the genetics to be pro-zie despite all the knowledge in world is still true. I just wanted to add some context about Charles.

Thanks for the info.

Everyone always says the guy was training genius pretty much and really knew what he was talking about. But he wrote a lot of articles where even his supporters were like, "wtf is this shit." Like he was joking around. Usually it was about things like guys gaining massive amounts of muscle by eating Jamaican food or taking out their teeth fillings.

 

[Fit2Serve]

I have to disagree.

He posted his diet and it's clean food. He has been able to gain weight no problem it's just fat, so we know he's not undereating.

Imo it's more likely the training.

so you would train harder and longer instead of adjusting diet?
zero logic there but each to their own.
when i competed i did 7 min of cardio ost work out thats it. why eat more and do more cardio to rid the calories? doesnt make sense.

 

[qbkilla]

so you would train harder and longer instead of adjusting diet?
zero logic there but each to their own.
when i competed i did 7 min of cardio ost work out thats it. why eat more and do more cardio to rid the calories? doesnt make sense.

I'm not sure what you mean?

He posted his diet, so we know he knows what good food is, he tracks his protein, weighs his food. He isn't eating McDonald's and Twinkie.

He also has no issues gaining weight, he's put on weight quickly in the past.

So if he knows how to eat properly and eat enough, diet probably isn't the issue. There is no magical ratio of carbs and fats or foods that could make a difference.

So it's more likely his training is off or his genetics just suck. Maybe he isn't getting stronger, his form sucks, his volume is off, he isn't training intense enough.

This is assuming he isn't lying about his diet which I can't see why he would there is little incentive for him to say he eats clean when he eats junk because he's reaching out for help.

I'd be curious to know is lifts, db press, bench, overhead press, that may give an idea if it's training. If he has only ever used the 90lb dumbbells for bench it's gotta be training intensity.

 

[smok44]

I'm not sure what you mean?

He posted his diet, so we know he knows what good food is, he tracks his protein, weighs his food. He isn't eating McDonald's and Twinkie.

He also has no issues gaining weight, he's put on weight quickly in the past.

So if he knows how to eat properly and eat enough, diet probably isn't the issue. There is no magical ratio of carbs and fats or foods that could make a difference.

So it's more likely his training is off or his genetics just suck. Maybe he isn't getting stronger, his form sucks, his volume is off, he isn't training intense enough.

This is assuming he isn't lying about his diet which I can't see why he would there is little incentive for him to say he eats clean when he eats junk because he's reaching out for help.

I'd be curious to know is lifts, db press, bench, overhead press, that may give an idea if it's training. If he has only ever used the 90lb dumbbells for bench it's gotta be training intensity.

Thanks for your support, I think your comments are probably the closest to reality I respond to gear but so poorly that I'm only able to put on 3 or 4 pounds of muscle on a cycle, the rest is fat. I should probably try to bulk for a longer period of time, this I what I plan to do after the summer. But the fact is, I only discovered counting calories 8 years ago, before I was rather chubby my whole life because I just love to eat a lot. So now that I finally know how to achieve a chiseled six pack, I don't want to look like a pig during the summer.
When it comes to training I'm unfortunately not strong genetically, as a natural I could never get past 225lb on bench press, and now my chest is still weak ( 8 reps incline press with 90lbs dumbbells is my max ), but there are some lifts at which I'm a little better - I can do 8 clean reps T-Bar rows with 5 plates or 6 ass to grass reps of front squats with a 270lb barbell. After such a set of front squats I can't even stand normally, I have to lie on the ground for two minutes trying to regain consciousness, so I find it a little unfair that so many people here suggest I'm not training hard enough...
And doing some cardio is important for heart healt, even when bulking, 30 minutes 4 times a week is not much and allows me to eat a little more !

 

[pesty4077]

Tell me why exactly you had this EXACT same thread one year ago?? I suggest people read his past posts. You didn't listen back then and I doubt you will now. I know you NEVER read the part where I said putting on 3 to 4 pounds of muscle on a cycle is good. Enough with this nonsense and wasting people's time who gave you good advice. All the drugs in the world are not going to help you. I am convinced with that.

 

[Bio]

I ended my last cycle at 4500kcal on training days and 3900kcal on rest days, but it was basically the same diet, I just kept gradually adding carbs and some protein from week to week, split across all the meals but mostly to my preworkout and post workout meals. I gained 15 pounds in 8 weeks but now I see it was mostly fat and water...

Of course it was, it was only 8 weeks! I don't think you have the correct understanding of how hypertrophy works. If you're just doing the above for 8 weeks then off, you're never going to put on any appreciable muscle. Try doing your routine for 20 to 24 weeks.