not looking good

[W8killa]

UAW sunk that ship. $2000 tacked on to each sub-par car (compared to european and japanese) they make to pay for the benefits of retired workers.

 

[Pekkerwood]

this is bullshit! we don't average $73 an hour. The company took what retiree costs are and put them in our wages. We make the same fucking money. I guess we should just go kill all the retirees?

Icemann. I respectfully differ. You are a future retiree. Your total costs are your costs. You cannot ignore retirement costs. You can't ignore the "job banking" costs. Ignoring those long term obligations is a lot of what created this problem in this industry. It is also overburdening the federal, state, and local governments who will not be able to sustain the retiree payouts they are obligated to pay.

I apologize if my views upset you. I'll repeat one thing I said earlier, if you put an ad in the paper in Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, South Carolina for $30 an hour jobs it would dwarf and American Idol audition. The fact that the wages are not $30 an hour tells us that there are "artificial" constraints on the free market wage. Many feel these constraints are in the form of the unions. You cannot artifically hold back the forces of a free market forever, and the result of that is what is happening here.

 

[Iceman1800]

Then should we add the cost of steel to my wage? I know the costs are there but that doesn't make it my wage. Toyota workers make the same wages as uaw workers do. They just haven't been around long enough to have significant retiree costs. Toyota and Honda will have these costs in the next 20 years once their workers start to retire. Unions are why the non union workforce has paid holidays, paid vacations, paid sick days, health care, pensions, and every other benefit there is. Let the unions go away and you will see the average wage in non union shops drop 50% overnight.

 

[Pekkerwood]

Then should we add the cost of steel to my wage? I know the costs are there but that doesn't make it my wage. Toyota workers make the same wages as uaw workers do. They just haven't been around long enough to have significant retiree costs. Toyota and Honda will have these costs in the next 20 years once their workers start to retire. Unions are why the non union workforce has paid holidays, paid vacations, paid sick days, health care, pensions, and every other benefit there is. Let the unions go away and you will see the average wage in non union shops drop 50% overnight.

Iceman,

Let me say I hope you make all the money you can. I truly wish you the best. My livin GF just lost her job Thursday. It has been brutal on her, no sleep, depressed etc. I know how these things can affect families and I truly wish the best for you and yours.

However.... In your own statement you state that your wages would be cut by half if not for the union. That confirms that you and I believe the same thing, that the wages are artificially high and if true market forces were to prevail they would drop by half. We agree. What we don't agree on is whether or not I, the taxpayer, should be the one making up this difference for you. Provide help for a while if you have a good plan? Yes, I'm for that. Unfortunately that plan will have to include returning wages to market levels so your company can survive for the long term, insuring you will have a job without moving to Mexico.

Your assumptions about health care and retirees at Toyota catching up to them in 20 years is false. Do the research on Google, its there. They are not burdened by the same contracts negotiated by Unions that the Big Three are. They have 401ks and defined benefit plans etc. That is why you must fix your model today to insure your future.

Again, I ask you, do you think its a coincidence that all the new plants choose to locate in right to work states, away from the main supply chain of parts? It would certainly be easier on them to not locate away from suppliers. They do it because they have to to survive and thrive. Tennessee, Georgia, Alabama, are becoming the new Detroit and the momentum is gaining.

BTW, if you read The Bricks post above, his insights mirror my beliefs pretty well. I too, have been hammered by this economy. I have not taken a paycheck from any of my companies since January. All of my employees have never missed a paycheck and they never will. When I did have to lay off employees, I gave them 90 days notice, and 90 days serverance pay. That gave them a half year to find other employment. I am not against employees. I am all for them. I am from a union family.

I personally think every business owner should take one month a year to live on the wage of his or hers lowest paid employee. I don't mean move out of your house, but on groceries, gas, clothes, entertainment, health care, etc, try to only spend what your lowest paid employee makes.

In closing, in no way is this an attack on you. I want the system fixed for a better America. Lets do it now, instead of doing it later. I am certainly open to the fact that my opinons are just that, opinions. I most certainly am not always right as I get pointed out to me every day by my gf! I truly wish you all the best in life.

Pekkerwood

 

[Sesshomaru]

Its a LOAN! I guess you are ok with walls street getting 100's of billions without having to give any details of what they do with it? Do you get the fact the millions will lose their jobs if the big 3 go under?

Nope. Im not for the wall st bailout either. THere are plenty of banks here and world wide that didnt do the stupid shit that a few banks did, and that are ready to take over those companies and restructure their capital in economically sound ways.

Yes millions will lose their jobs, but do you realize that many more millions will suffer due to an inflated currency and supporting a broken system?

 

[Sesshomaru]

I hear you on the bailout shit. but we gotta make something here in the USA. just servicing each other won't last very long.

Yeah but we gotta make something good. We as a people and government have relied on the rest of the world to save and invest while we borrow money from their investment in order to spend spend spend and putting it all on our credit card. THeres a reason why the US has a negative savings rate and our giv is running insane deficits.

Watch this video, as this is just soemthing that was coming but everyone wanted to enjoy the party instead of listening to the informed views:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I0QN-FYkpw

 

[Iceman1800]

UAW sunk that ship. $2000 tacked on to each sub-par car (compared to european and japanese) they make to pay for the benefits of retired workers.

sub par? 4 of the 5 top recalled cars in 2007 were foreign cars....

 

[Jarconis]

Olinger Distributors. They have the only rights to ship out 50% of Indiana's liquor and wine. Another company called National has the rights to the rest. 10-15k cases a of booze loaded each nite.

ah, I work for Republic National

 

[mung]

How long can we continue to prop up the economy. We need to keep credit avenues open, but the laws of captialism break down when they are continually propped up by the gov.

Some of this is going to come down, at least for the big three, to having a job making less money versus having no job at all. Sad reality, but again, you cannot have a true free market and have artificial props keeping the money ball rolling.

I had the unfortunate displeasure of reading Rivothead. A sad insight into the automakers world and the destructive attitude unions breed. Unions have their time and place, but you cannot expect to fund retirees at a linear rate and not expect competition to erode the very business model you've built for retirees.

I live in a small midwestern town and we have unions here that strike on new construction jobs, stand outside the site petitioning the company they lost the bid to, as local workers step and complete the job and take home paychecks to feed their families. The unions out of chicago hire local homeless to petition various busy intersections of town trying to discredit local companies that award construction jobs to less expensive, non-union bidders.

 

[Sesshomaru]

People forget that back in the 1950's-ish, the unions wanted to take control of their own health care and fund it themselves, but it was the BIG 3 that went against that. I guess they figured they could squeeze an extra buck out having a pension fund. Looks like its biting them in the ass now.

 

[exorcist1]

i work in the grocery sector, people may eat less, but they still have to eat.

in the same business... customers are up but they are buying less. but you are right, people need to eat...