NPP vs Tren, a realistic comparison

[andro]

We all agreed that you cannot compare Tren with NPP mg for mg. The mg amount in order to compare NPP to Tren whould have to go up. To be fair, let's compare 75mg of Tren to 150mg of NPP. How many people have done that much NPP? Not too many. By my calculations, 150mg NPP ED only corresponds to the peak/efficient part of a ~500mg per week Deca cycle.

As far as when I ran a gram of NPP, I never experienced any gyno flair up as some have. I used dostinex, I believe 0.5mg 3X per week. I used the pharma one comes in 4tab bottles. I had made a 120mg NPP/ 100mg Test Enanthate blend, and I would shoot 1.25cc ED. That would give me 150mg of NPP and 125mg of Test ED (875mg per week).

By the end of week 5 or 6, I started experiencing some sexual sides (I would not finish quick enough) I would stay all the way up, but after 1h30min-2h, my girl would get frustrated. I stopped at week 6, continued with primo instead at 600mg per week along with enanthate.

Cycle was the best I've ever done. Strength gains through the roof, better than Tren in that regard, IMO. Tren gives you a wired feeling, CNS stimulant like, but the joint pain quickly adds up. NPP gives you a confidence and real strength increases. It did not drop as sharply as when I discontinued tren.

Again, if you compare let's say Anadrol to dbol, you wouldn't compare 25mg of dbol to 25mg of Anadrol... You compare based on what we as a community view as an effective standard dose after years of information sharing...

Sent you a PM.
This is very interesting

 

[AlphaMaleDawg]

We all agreed that you cannot compare Tren with NPP mg for mg. The mg amount in order to compare NPP to Tren whould have to go up. To be fair, let's compare 75mg of Tren to 150mg of NPP. How many people have done that much NPP? Not too many. By my calculations, 150mg NPP ED only corresponds to the peak/efficient part of a ~500mg per week Deca cycle.

As far as when I ran a gram of NPP, I never experienced any gyno flair up as some have. I used dostinex, I believe 0.5mg 3X per week. I used the pharma one comes in 4tab bottles. I had made a 120mg NPP/ 100mg Test Enanthate blend, and I would shoot 1.25cc ED. That would give me 150mg of NPP and 125mg of Test ED (875mg per week).

By the end of week 5 or 6, I started experiencing some sexual sides (I would not finish quick enough) I would stay all the way up, but after 1h30min-2h, my girl would get frustrated. I stopped at week 6, continued with primo instead at 600mg per week along with enanthate.

Cycle was the best I've ever done. Strength gains through the roof, better than Tren in that regard, IMO. Tren gives you a wired feeling, CNS stimulant like, but the joint pain quickly adds up. NPP gives you a confidence and real strength increases. It did not drop as sharply as when I discontinued tren.

Again, if you compare let's say Anadrol to dbol, you wouldn't compare 25mg of dbol to 25mg of Anadrol... You compare based on what we as a community view as an effective standard dose after years of information sharing...

Yes that is exactly what I meant.

 

[BigDaddyBone]

By my calculations, 150mg NPP ED only corresponds to the peak/efficient part of a ~500mg per week Deca cycle.

So going off of this, it sounds like 50mg ED wouldn't provide too much anabolism right? Since it'd only be equivalent to ~150mg Deca weekly?

 

[hypno]

As an endurance athlete I can say flatly that NPP is better for my needs than Tren.

If NPP burned fat as well as Tren it might even be better for BB'ers but I can't say that for sure. Not being a BB'er myself.

 

[andro]

So going off of this, it sounds like 50mg ED wouldn't provide too much anabolism right? Since it'd only be equivalent to ~150mg Deca weekly?

So this is confusing to me the ester in npp is shorter than the one in deca. There for woud the npp be more effective at a lower dose. So your saying 350mgthat of npp is the same as 150mg deca even though npp has more active nandrolone.
I must be missing something.

 

[718si]

So this is confusing to me the ester in npp is shorter than the one in deca. There for woud the npp be more effective at a lower dose. So your saying 350mgthat of npp is the same as 150mg deca even though npp has more active nandrolone.
I must be missing something.

Although NPP has more hormone on a mg per mg basis, due to the much shorter half-life, blood concentrations:

1-Peak much quicker,
2-Don't buildup nearly as much, and
3-Drop off much quicker when finished.

Using **broken link removed** I put together 2 different 10 week "cycles" - 150mg Deca/week and 50mg NPP/day. I then graphed the resulting blood concentrations using excel. Here's what they look like:

**broken link removed**

Although daily injects are much more of a "hassle", the difference in how these two versions of the same drug work is startling... Much easier to attain a certain level of hormone, keep it steady, and clear much quicker with NPP than Deca.

 

[andro]

So if i have done 800mg of deca and did not get much strength or size will i have any luck with NPP?

I plan on running 150mg NPP ED and 125mg Test ED.

its just the Deca ester takes so dam long to feel the deca, last time i could not tell or feel it at all.

Hoping NPP is different

 

[718si]

So if i have done 800mg of deca and did not get much strength or size will i have any luck with NPP?

I plan on running 150mg NPP ED and 125mg Test ED.

its just the Deca ester takes so dam long to feel the deca, last time i could not tell or feel it at all.

Hoping NPP is different

There's only a few possible explanations to no strength or size off of 800mg of deca weekly:

-bunk gear
-shit training, diet, and/or rest
-you're already an "advanced" monster well beyond your natural genetic limits using large amounts of other gear at the time

Pick one or more of the above and run with it.

 

[andro]

Just felt like the Deca never kicked in. I did get some gyno from it and got some bloat. just looked smooth :banghead:

 

[andro]

so would i get better gains off 1g Deca or 1g NPP?

the deca will build up in my system, but i have heard NPP is better.

 

[VFW]

power

me and my guys compete in a power sport, within weight classes. We all feel tren enanthate is the best by far for being strong while making weight. 5 of us have several National Titles off it Just test prop, and tren, thats all

 

[BA69]

Although NPP has more hormone on a mg per mg basis, due to the much shorter half-life, blood concentrations:

1-Peak much quicker,
2-Don't buildup nearly as much, and
3-Drop off much quicker when finished.

Using **broken link removed** I put together 2 different 10 week "cycles" - 150mg Deca/week and 50mg NPP/day. I then graphed the resulting blood concentrations using excel. Here's what they look like:

...

Although daily injects are much more of a "hassle", the difference in how these two versions of the same drug work is startling... Much easier to attain a certain level of hormone, keep it steady, and clear much quicker with NPP than Deca.

Great post! Thank you.

Look at how 350mg of NPP is not attaining the same peak blood levels of Nandrolone as a measly 150mg of Deca. All that bloat is mainly related to up and down blood levels.

So your 1050mg of NPP is not actually such a "crazy" dose when you consider that it clears fairly quickly. In this case, mg amounts are not comparable. It's definitely not equivalent to using 1000mg of deca.

Look at the graph, 150mg of Deca achieved peaks nearly double what 350mg NPP was able to do. NPP provides steady blood levels and in my experience, this equates to much better results and much less sides like acne and bloat.

People do ED injects for Tren, that's one of the reasons I compared the two drugs.

A picture really is worth a thousand words...

 

[BA69]

So going off of this, it sounds like 50mg ED wouldn't provide too much anabolism right? Since it'd only be equivalent to ~150mg Deca weekly?

50mg is a fairly mild dose, yet strong since it provides a STEADY blood level of nandrolone. Decanoate ester, by design cannot do the same, especially when using doses over 100mg per week. When compared to 50mg of Tren, 50mg of NPP is not nearly as strong, but most can easily double up on NPP and even triple up with little increase of sides. Depends on the person. I'm the type who has sides from everything, so I can only imagine what other guys are capable of tolerating, and have not considered it since this idea that 1000mg of NPP is like using 1000mg of Deca.

Sides start to creep up at W6 for me, so I run it in a blast fashion. By sides, I mean not being able to finish quickly enough during sex.

 

[Knight9]

Bro, I could be wrong but I dont think its correct saying 500mg Deca=1050mg NPP...

I also dont think there is any place for npp being compared to half the dosage of tren. Most are missing the point of this thread....It's not to compare how much npp equals or doesnt equal how much tren...

Look at the topic objectively and stop trying to equate them. They are different and not comparable, but I do agree NPP is fantastic and better for adding size, while tren is better for a 'look'.

 

[BA69]

You're right, they are completely different. I was just trying to illustrate that comparing things mg for mg doesn't really work.

As far as 500mg of Deca = 1050mg of NPP, look at the graph 718si plotted. The blue line with the peaks and valleys is 150mg Deca and imagine a curve drawn through the highest peaks...looks to be a value of 380 at the highest peak. 350mg of NPP peaks at about 245 on the graph, a difference of close to 60% more nandrolone using just 150mg of Deca vs 350mg of NPP. The problem with deca is that it will not hold that high value very long while the NPP will continue with a steady stream, and that why we get better gains on 350mg of NPP than 150mg of deca and much less sides.

 

[718si]

You're right, they are completely different. I was just trying to illustrate that comparing things mg for mg doesn't really work.

As far as 500mg of Deca = 1050mg of NPP, look at the graph 718si plotted. The blue line with the peaks and valleys is 150mg Deca and imagine a curve drawn through the highest peaks...looks to be a value of 380 at the highest peak. 350mg of NPP peaks at about 245 on the graph, a difference of close to 60% more nandrolone using just 150mg of Deca vs 350mg of NPP. The problem with deca is that it will not hold that high value very long while the NPP will continue with a steady stream, and that why we get better gains on 350mg of NPP than 150mg of deca and much less sides.

FWIW, if can't say for certain that the exact peak levels of both compounds is completely accurate... It's as accurate at the database for halflife calculations is on that site.

With that said, I believe the shapes of the graphs to be a fairly accurate reflection of the way the two compounds would rise, plateau, and fall respective to one another if dosed with the said frequencies.

Point being, daily administration of NPP will lead to reaching peak plasma concentration sooner, provide much steadier and predictable levels on cycle, and will clear much quicker for pct or in the event you need to stop for whatever reason.

I truly believe that for HRT or cruise longer esters administered 2-3 times a week are ideal, and for blasts or cycles it's preferable to use faster acting short esters on a daily basis.

 

[andro]

do better gains come from higher peak plasma concentration or Higher blood concentration?

 

[Rex Feral]

Fair enough. I suppose we aren't really addressing each other or the intent of the OP per se but speaking truthfully about different sides of the same coin. This might be a competitive BB forum but this thread per se was not asking how do I win the Olympia. Yes of course the kitchen sink approach is what works. More is better. So yes 3g of test, 2g of tren a week 30iu of GH daily, slin etc etc. I'm not debating that but then again that also was not the point of the thread or the question.
As true as it is to say this is a competitive bodybuilding forum, its equally true to say this forum is about sharing of knowledge and information and general health. All the trophies in the world aren't much good to you when you're either dead or don't have a decent quality of life.
Bottom line is we probably actually agree with what the other is saying depending on the looking glass. In both cases, neither is right or wrong per se, but both probably deviate from this thread's purposeful intent

Agreed. Always enjoy your posts BTW.

On topic, I would be leery of the accuracy of the graph presented above. Also bad example, 50 mg NPP qd is not the way to go about it as you lose the huge peak you get with NPP, which is one of its primary advantages. Better to inject larger amounts biw-tiw as you will achieve a much higher peak concentration which then takes longer to clear obviously. Daily injections of NPP are useless and even counterproductive. In the attached graph, if it uploaded properly, you can see 100 mg NPP reaches a peak concentration twice that of 100mg ND. Nandrolone is still significantly elevated 3d post admin NPP. On a bi-weekly admin schedule, you will then of course build upon the significant level of nandrolone remaining after 3 days and create a higher peak, as it will actually be about 7 days before half of the NPP is cleared. And so on, build on the previous peak until you are ready to stop, at which point you take advantage of the other primary advantage of NPP, its clearance. The other graph is of no use as you can clearly see, perhaps for clearance assuming whatever data they used is accurate, but it does not represent true pharmacokinetics of the 2 esters. You can easily achieve concentrations that would take several weeks to attain with ND in the first week of NPP, achieve higher concentrations overall on a mg per mg per basis, and not spend another several weeks clearing the dose. Thus making NPP much more efficient, allowing you to save a considerable amount of time reaching peak and clearing.

Rex.

 

[ErnieTaylor]

do better gains come from higher peak plasma concentration or Higher blood concentration?

Good question.

 

[Lifter2009]

Not sure. Tren is maybe twice as strong mg for mg? Hard to really quantify. I'm sensitive to sides and still managed 150mg of NPP ED. I definitely had better results on 150mg of NPP vs 50mg of Tren while managing the sides better on NPP.

I don't know too many people who have run NPP at over 100mg a day. I did the math years ago(could be off), and 500mg of Deca will give you around 800mg of BASE nandrolone when blood levels peak. 800mg of Base Nandrolone would correspond to roughly 1050mg of NPP. So 500mg a week of Deca very inefficiently will deliver the same amount of Nandrolone as 150mg a day. I would have loved to see results on short bursts of 200mg ED.

How r u figuring peak levels? I thought half life was like 15 days, so half of compound was spent/active in 15 days after inj. So by this math, 500 EW would slowly go up to 500 EW spent/active (by overlapping half lives from previous 2 mo+ inj), then take forever to clear when stopping. Am I off here?