Opinions on Estrogen control?

[richardcory]

So I'm running test/deca, soon going to add in anadrol and dbol for a blast. I'm not feeling any estrogen sides (knock on wood no gyno thank goodness...i've had that before), but I was wondering people's thoughts on if I should still run some AI in case there are estrogenic effects that I just might not be feeling. I've been using Nolva everyday, but obviously thats not an AI. I've heard two trains of thought: 1. only use an AI when you feel sides and need it, 2. too much estrogen is bad regardless so it should be kept under control at all times no matter what. Thoughts?

 

[little slice]

:banghead:

 

[richardcory]

:banghead:

My apologies if it's a dumb question. I've just known enough people on both sides of the issue that it has not been clear to me which is the correct path to take.

 

[RamboStallone]

The correct path is whatever works for you. I personally don't run an AI. On blasts I run Nolvadex daily. Even if it is not an AI it is a SERM and can be used to control estrogen effectively.

 

[nothuman]

If you're going in blind without bloodwork, only using an AI "just in case gyno flares up" is a fool's game. Always use one assuming you're not using a tiny dose.

 

[landmarkchem.raine]

The HCG for 10 shots at 1000iu every other day is pretty good to try.

 

[mtl325]

I'd like some more info as well. Search function isnt the most reliable. I take 12.5 Asin weekly (6.25) on pin days)

 

[Swifto]

Search function works fine.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...um/82587-why-important-run-ai-when-cycle.html

**broken link removed**

 

[drkimcrawford]

Estrogen control

HI all,
I see those of you banging heads and it gave me a good Monday morning laugh.

You do not WAIT to FEEL estrogenic effects- some guys don't feel them with estradiols of 60!

A high estrogen will at best give you nipple tingles or loss of libido. At worst it will give you BPH and prostate cancer.

Women are supposed to have a certain amount of T

Men-a certain amount of E2. Level should be 10-15 pg/ml and with BB dosing it is impossible to use chrysin or progesterone-you need anastrozole / arimidex.

Everyone doing all of this "in the dark" without labwork showing not just hormone levels but levels of cortisol, inflammation, etc is playing with fire.

Best to all,
Dr.Kim

 

[lowTdude]

hey guys saw that Chrysin was mentioned here. I need some more info on that, didnt wanna create a separate thread. Does Chrysin really work to keep estrogen under control? Someone with real experience using a while please chime in and share what product worked best. I am on trt, and sometime use 12.5 mg araomasin couple times a week..that works great! Often brings the E2 even below 20. But I'd like to give "natural" stuff a try if that does the job too.

 

[b_cornelius]

hey guys saw that Chrysin was mentioned here. I need some more info on that, didnt wanna create a separate thread. Does Chrysin really work to keep estrogen under control? Someone with real experience using a while please chime in and share what product worked best. I am on trt, and sometime use 12.5 mg araomasin couple times a week..that works great! Often brings the E2 even below 20. But I'd like to give "natural" stuff a try if that does the job too.

Chrysin was mostly just a fools errand from the days of marketing androstene. It contains a weak estrogen and was used as an imitator of Tamoxifen, but it was not really all that good.

Hey it's not the worst idea because you could always just eat a lot of soy. Mostly "natural" just means a complex but imprecise mixture of substances...kind of like eating food. So you can always just eat a bunch of herbs and see what happens. We kind of do it all the time.

You learn how to determine, isolate, and choose. There's no "natural." There's just "stuff" and probabilities. So just as most people learn how to choose their diets, some people take tamoxifen because it gives them a degree of precision and control.

Tamoxifen does produce a slightly-toxic metabolite, and we've discovered that tamoxifen is just a prodrug for it's active substance, 4-hydroxytamoxifen. Hopefully we get some of that soon, but there isn't much of an economic incentive to bring it to market. Afimoxifene should be potent and less toxic.

 

[swim15]

Use one if you need one, no need to throw drugs in your body for no reason.

If you're using nolva, you aren't going to feeel any e2 sides because the estrogen is being blocked so you won't ever have sides like sore nips.

I feel better with relatively high estrogen and my sex drive is significantly better so I rarely use one except for contest prep usually. From what I've observed from a lot of people, not everyone, is that your body wants a balance. If your test is at 5000, "normal" estrogen of 30 is low (for me at least) and I would feel kinda crappy and not be able to get a hard on most likely. If my test is high, I feel best with estrogen between 100 and 200. Above that and I need an AI but my test dose would need to be over 1500 a week.

Not saying this is everyone, just me and where I feel good/have normal sex function.

 

[oscarop1211]

Estrogen is a trip I was 33 and had tingling nipples and puffy and water bloat with a clean diet got a quarter tab of ai tingling nipples went away till my next shot of trt but still had water bloat then I ask for half tab boom bloat went away nipples looked better then I started and I grew like 3 pounds that week just felt good and looked way bigger

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

 

[kash666]

So I'm running test/deca, soon going to add in anadrol and dbol for a blast. I'm not feeling any estrogen sides (knock on wood no gyno thank goodness...i've had that before), but I was wondering people's thoughts on if I should still run some AI in case there are estrogenic effects that I just might not be feeling. I've been using Nolva everyday, but obviously thats not an AI. I've heard two trains of thought: 1. only use an AI when you feel sides and need it, 2. too much estrogen is bad regardless so it should be kept under control at all times no matter what. Thoughts?

I would recommend getting blood work to see where your e2 is at. But i usually run a ai on cycle starting at week four and take .25e3d and that works well with me. But you have to remember every bodies body reacts different to these compounds so its hard to give advice. But i would def get blood to see where your at because yes too much e2 and too little e2 are both problematic

 

[Kaladryn]

Try 6mg daily aromasin with 10mg daily nolvadex. You aren't feeling the sides of high E2 because you are taking nolva

HI all,
I see those of you banging heads and it gave me a good Monday morning laugh.

You do not WAIT to FEEL estrogenic effects- some guys don't feel them with estradiols of 60!

A high estrogen will at best give you nipple tingles or loss of libido. At worst it will give you BPH and prostate cancer.

Women are supposed to have a certain amount of T

Men-a certain amount of E2. Level should be 10-15 pg/ml and with BB dosing it is impossible to use chrysin or progesterone-you need anastrozole / arimidex.

Everyone doing all of this "in the dark" without labwork showing not just hormone levels but levels of cortisol, inflammation, etc is playing with fire.

Best to all,
Dr.Kim

Two important things most MDs don't know:

1. E2 and T compete at the receptor due to co-binding factors. If you are doing 1g/week of test, you will need your E2 level in the 50-100 range to feel "normal."

2. AIs can only lower E2 levels by about 50% in males (same with premenopausal females I might add), this is due to "protected" aromatization that is going on in the ovaries and in the testicles that AIs cannot reach.

So if you are on very high doses of test, not only would you not want E2 levels in the normal range, it wouldn't be possible to even get there in most cases.

10-15 pg/ml E2 is too low IMO, I feel much better in the 20-30 range on a physiological T dosage.

 

[lowTdude]

why would people take nolva over amomasin ? If you dont want extra estrogen whats the point of letting the liver to produce it in the first place and let them float around in the system for nothing?

Anyway, didnt wanna go too far off the tangent of my point. Anybody ran bloodwork after using Chrysine or Diindolylmethane for estorgen blocking? Just curious to know the result

 

[b_cornelius]

why would people take nolva over amomasin ? If you dont want extra estrogen whats the point of letting the liver to produce it in the first place and let them float around in the system for nothing?

Anyway, didnt wanna go too far off the tangent of my point. Anybody ran bloodwork after using Chrysine or Diindolylmethane for estorgen blocking? Just curious to know the result

Modulators antagonize specific estrogen receptors. In general you want to activate more of the Estrogen beta receptor.

Since estrogen potentiates the effectiveness of androgens, you need estrogen. Further, if you want to control which tissues that grow, then controlling estrogen is paramount. There are more known variations of estrogen receptors than there are androgen receptors, so you can use these different estrogen receptors to selectively choose which tissues that you want to stimulate. That's what modulators do.

 

[LATS]

Try 6mg daily aromasin with 10mg daily nolvadex. You aren't feeling the sides of high E2 because you are taking nolva



Two important things most MDs don't know:

1. E2 and T compete at the receptor due to co-binding factors. If you are doing 1g/week of test, you will need your E2 level in the 50-100 range to feel "normal."

2. AIs can only lower E2 levels by about 50% in males (same with premenopausal females I might add), this is due to "protected" aromatization that is going on in the ovaries and in the testicles that AIs cannot reach.

So if you are on very high doses of test, not only would you not want E2 levels in the normal range, it wouldn't be possible to even get there in most cases.

10-15 pg/ml E2 is too low IMO, I feel much better in the 20-30 range on a physiological T dosage.

This has always been a issue for me and why I don run high test anymore.. I now go no higher than 300 mgs of test and run higher " anabolic " based compounds.. I tried running just nolva ( 20 mgs a day) because aromasin ECT always ended up giving me joint issues.. But I just recently decided to add 10 mgs every other day of aromasin as I truly believe that anything over hrt ( roughly 150 mgs a week ) is going to cause e2 issues in about anyone and everyone.. Kaladryn what is your opinion of just running nolva at low dose ( 300 mgs) with just nolva?.. Do you feel nolva can protect from estro effect in say the prostate ? Or is a AI also needed.. ?

 

[Selected]

So I'm running test/deca, soon going to add in anadrol and dbol for a blast. I'm not feeling any estrogen sides (knock on wood no gyno thank goodness...i've had that before), but I was wondering people's thoughts on if I should still run some AI in case there are estrogenic effects that I just might not be feeling. I've been using Nolva everyday, but obviously thats not an AI. I've heard two trains of thought: 1. only use an AI when you feel sides and need it, 2. too much estrogen is bad regardless so it should be kept under control at all times no matter what. Thoughts?

it could be different answer to different people？


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[Kaladryn]

This has always been a issue for me and why I don run high test anymore.. I now go no higher than 300 mgs of test and run higher " anabolic " based compounds.. I tried running just nolva ( 20 mgs a day) because aromasin ECT always ended up giving me joint issues.. But I just recently decided to add 10 mgs every other day of aromasin as I truly believe that anything over hrt ( roughly 150 mgs a week ) is going to cause e2 issues in about anyone and everyone.. Kaladryn what is your opinion of just running nolva at low dose ( 300 mgs) with just nolva?.. Do you feel nolva can protect from estro effect in say the prostate ? Or is a AI also needed.. ?

That is the real question IMO, does nolva "protect" you from all that e2? I don't know, maybe. There is also the issue that nolva is a mild carcinogen in women, but that seems to only be in reproductive organs, and does that have to do E2 being blocked? I don't know.

I really like 10mg nolva with 6mg aromasin on my current cycle, but I'm taking my test a little higher than you. What about like .25mg adex twice weekly along with 10mg nolva daily? Just to drop that E2 level a bit and let the nolva do the rest?

If I was running test only, I would stick with aromasin, but running test with other estrogenic AAS (deca/eq/drol/etc) a little nolva does the trick for me.