over 2 years on carnivore diet and various fasting lengths

[goal245]

How does that help with growing more muscle?

keeps your insulin sensitivity high, GH goes high. Keeps you healthy. Feel huge and refreshed after fast



Take 2 people following same exact amount of food monthly but one does a 96hr fast per month. I would bet the fasting individual will have better gains and be leaner everything else being equal

 

[qbkilla]

combine "eating right" with fasting for the best health results. Only fasting (prolonged 72+hrs) provides benefits of fasting, no drug, workout or diet will provide those benefits to the same degree

The only benefits that I believe it provides is fat loss. That can be achieved easily by tracking calories and steps so I don't see the need to suffer for 72 hours. Losing fat imo is the easiest thing any human can do, its easier than getting out of bed in the morning lol. I don't believe in the body cleaning personally.

 

[buck]

keeps your insulin sensitivity high, GH goes high. Keeps you healthy. Feel huge and refreshed after fast

View attachment 252352

Take 2 people following same exact amount of food monthly but one does a 96hr fast per month. I would bet the fasting individual will have better gains and be leaner everything else being equal

Feeling huge is not the same as being huge. For those that already have good insulin sensitivity and GH levels it would not be a help to them it seems from your writing only those that are likely unhealthy.
So there is not real data to show fasting aids in muscle growth.
I know from at least a couple medical Dr that when utilizing fasting longer term they noted significant muscle loss after a few years of following the protocol I would expect the same in a larger population

 

[goal245]

so I don't see the need to suffer for 72 hours.

You don't suffer though, mental energy, clarity and 0 appetite equivalent to being on a good dose of Adderall or caffeine + nicotine. Any time works gets crazy or I have other high stress in life, need to be very productive I fast. It is like being on strong stimulants.

 

[hawkmoon]

keeps your insulin sensitivity high, GH goes high. Keeps you healthy. Feel huge and refreshed after fast

View attachment 252352

Take 2 people following same exact amount of food monthly but one does a 96hr fast per month. I would bet the fasting individual will have better gains and be leaner everything else being equal

This information is quite out of context. Context is important.

Chasing 'insulin sensitivity' through fasting is completely backward for performance. Fasting actually forces the body into a state of adaptive insulin resistance to spare glucose for the brain.
This downregulates muscle GLUT4 transporters, crippling your ability to efficiently drive carbohydrates into the muscle cell when performance actually demands it.

In regrads to GH, it is indeed elevated in times of starvation (fasting). But why?
It is because the body is mobilizing substrate to survive. The shift to fatty acid oxidation is not for increased performance, but to provide the brain with the limited glycogen available as mentioned.
GH's "protein sparing" effect in times like this is to prevent organ cannibalization and failure. Of course, in times of starvation, amino acids and insulin are very low, so the only muscle-building aspect of GH - IGF-1 production - is crippled.
There are not enough amino acids for MPS. This iniformation is in the papers and expanded onin later research.

This is a last-ditch effort by the body to survive. It cannot be applied to bodybuilding, or even to any better health outcomes.

 

[goal245]

This information is quite out of context. Context is important.

Chasing 'insulin sensitivity' through fasting is completely backward for performance. Fasting actually forces the body into a state of adaptive insulin resistance to spare glucose for the brain.
This downregulates muscle GLUT4 transporters, crippling your ability to efficiently drive carbohydrates into the muscle cell when performance actually demands it.

In regrads to GH, it is indeed elevated in times of starvation (fasting). But why?
It is because the body is mobilizing substrate to survive. The shift to fatty acid oxidation is not for increased performance, but to provide the brain with the limited glycogen available as mentioned.
GH's "protein sparing" effect in times like this is to prevent organ cannibalization and failure. Of course, in times of starvation, amino acids and insulin are very low, so the only muscle-building aspect of GH - IGF-1 production - is crippled.
There are not enough amino acids for MPS. This iniformation is in the papers and expanded onin later research.

This is a last-ditch effort by the body to survive. It cannot be applied to bodybuilding, or even to any better health outcomes.

72-96 hour fast does not put the body into "last-ditch effort by the body to survive". Also 72-96 hour fast is not starvation

 

[hawkmoon]

72-96 hour fast does not put the body into "last-ditch effort by the body to survive". Also 72-96 hour fast is not starvation

It absolutely does, that is why those adaptions happened. Read the papers you linked to.

 

[goal245]

It absolutely does, that is why those adaptions happened. Read the papers you linked to.

Give it a try and see that in 72 hours without food your body will be in the most primed "hunting state" you have ever felt. You are ready to go catch the next meal

 

[Fleezy]

everything everyone has written in this thread..








is wrong

 

[hawkmoon]

Give it a try and see that in 72 hours without food your body will be in the most primed "hunting state" you have ever felt. You are ready to go catch the next meal

Your body is triggered into a "hunting state" because it thinks you are starving. This is not a good thing.
In starvation (yes, a fast is technically starvation, hence the adaptations you seek), the body goes through stages:

• Norepinephrine and adrenaline are elevated to encourage food-seeking in the absence of calories.
• The body shuts down the parasympathetic nervous system, and corticotropin-releasing hormone increases, leading to blunted hunger.
• Within 48 hours, it shifts to ketoadaptation and spikes HGH to defend against rapid muscle and tissue wasting.

Again, the literature you quoted clearly states these are adaptations to starvation. These adaptations happen to fuel the brain, preserve muscle and organs, and encourage food-seeking.
It's not optimal. Your increased norepinephrine and adrenaline making you feel "clear and alert" happen to prevent death. You are feeling an evolutionary "high" adapted to keep you alive, not maximize performance.

If anyone is wondering why I am bothering with this, it is because this information is repeatedly parroted without context or deeper consideration. The clarity is often found directly within the research used to support their position, but it is either not read or completely ignored. This is the current state of anti-science, where people will use whatever snippets they can find to further a narrative, while discarding the larger body of work that proves their position wrong.

 

[goal245]

Your body is triggered into a "hunting state" because it thinks you are starving. This is not a good thing.

No, the body does this not because it thinks you are starving, you are not - YET, it does it to make sure you don't end up starving.

Textbook definition of starvation:

"Starvation is a severe, prolonged deficiency in caloric and nutritional intake that falls far below the minimum required to sustain life. It is the most extreme form of malnutrition, eventually leading to permanent organ damage and death if left untreated"

"Starvation officially begins when the body depletes its primary energy stores (glycogen and fat) and begins cannibalizing its own tissues. While the absolute limit varies by an individual's hydration, body fat, and health"




Final weeks of a contest prep you are way more in "starvation" mode than you are when ending a 96 hour fast (fast starts in a well fed, nourished state)

 

[SouthernMuscle]

Your body is triggered into a "hunting state" because it thinks you are starving. This is not a good thing.
In starvation (yes, a fast is technically starvation, hence the adaptations you seek), the body goes through stages:

• Norepinephrine and adrenaline are elevated to encourage food-seeking in the absence of calories.
• The body shuts down the parasympathetic nervous system, and corticotropin-releasing hormone increases, leading to blunted hunger.
• Within 48 hours, it shifts to ketoadaptation and spikes HGH to defend against rapid muscle and tissue wasting.

Again, the literature you quoted clearly states these are adaptations to starvation. These adaptations happen to fuel the brain, preserve muscle and organs, and encourage food-seeking.
It's not optimal. Your increased norepinephrine and adrenaline making you feel "clear and alert" happen to prevent death. You are feeling an evolutionary "high" adapted to keep you alive, not maximize performance.

If anyone is wondering why I am bothering with this, it is because this information is repeatedly parroted without context or deeper consideration. The clarity is often found directly within the research used to support their position, but it is either not read or completely ignored. This is the current state of anti-science, where people will use whatever snippets they can find to further a narrative, while discarding the larger body of work that proves their position wrong.

I actually was wondering so I appreciate the last paragraph.

 

[qbkilla]

You don't suffer though, mental energy, clarity and 0 appetite equivalent to being on a good dose of Adderall or caffeine + nicotine. Any time works gets crazy or I have other high stress in life, need to be very productive I fast. It is like being on strong stimulants.

I just would consider this self punishment and would need 100% evidence to not eat for 72 hours. Also see this as creating a poor relationship with food. Food is not why people don't walk around as lean as they want to be evey day of their life, human behavior and a lack of self control are the problem.

I am all for people doing any diet they prefer but I personally think 72 hour fasts provide 0 benefit to people who "have their shit together " when it comes to their eating practices.

 

[goal245]

I just would consider this self punishment and would need 100% evidence to not eat for 72 hours. Also see this as creating a poor relationship with food. Food is not why people don't walk around as lean as they want to be evey day of their life, human behavior and a lack of self control are the problem.

I am all for people doing any diet they prefer but I personally think 72 hour fasts provide 0 benefit to people who "have their shit together " when it comes to their eating practices.

Yea its one of those things you won't know until you try. it is as much spiritual as it is physical. it is a truly unique experience being without food, voluntarily for that long. Start slow, 24 hours, then 48 etc.

fasting actually creates a very good relationship with food, gives you more control.

The craziest thing about a fast is when you eat that first meal, it is very uneventful. You take a few bites and it is like ok cool I ate. very unexciting and no big deal.

Nothing like coming out of contest prep (starvation) and eating that first post contest meal where it just feels like you are in heaven.

After fast meal is very unexciting as counterintuitive as it seems. next day appetite is low and you'll probably only eat half of what you normally would

 

[goal245]

I just would consider this self punishment and would need 100% evidence to not eat for 72 hours.

What are you afraid of that would make you think this is self punishment? Are you afraid of hunger, afraid of shrinking or what is it that makes you feel like it is punishment? Like what do you think the worst possible thing will be if you simply do not eat for 72 hours?

Going through it would show you that it is actually not scary and is something you would enjoy and look forward to

 

[SouthernMuscle]

What are you afraid of that would make you think this is self punishment? Are you afraid of hunger, afraid of shrinking or what is it that makes you feel like it is punishment? Like what do you think the worst possible thing will be if you simply do not eat for 72 hours?

Going through it would show you that it is actually not scary and is something you would enjoy and look forward to

Your phrasing makes it seem like your next post will ask if he has a minute to talk about our lord Jesus Christ or perhaps the book of mormon

 

[hawkmoon]

No, the body does this not because it thinks you are starving, you are not - YET, it does it to make sure you don't end up starving.

Textbook definition of starvation:

"Starvation is a severe, prolonged deficiency in caloric and nutritional intake that falls far below the minimum required to sustain life. It is the most extreme form of malnutrition, eventually leading to permanent organ damage and death if left untreated"

"Starvation officially begins when the body depletes its primary energy stores (glycogen and fat) and begins cannibalizing its own tissues. While the absolute limit varies by an individual's hydration, body fat, and health"




Final weeks of a contest prep you are way more in "starvation" mode than you are when ending a 96 hour fast (fast starts in a well fed, nourished state)

You are confusing the final stages of terminal starvation with the metabolic definition of starvation, which is the starvation mode in the papers you are using to support your view.
If you discard that, you must discard the entire premise of the papers. This is the problem with cherry-picking and ignoring context.

A 72-to-96-hour fast is structurally Phase 3 (Protein-Sparing/Ketotic) starvation. The only reason the body spikes HGH, shuts down peripheral insulin sensitivity, drops T3, and switches the brain to ketone metabolism during that exact window is because liver glycogen is completely exhausted. These are evolutionary triage protocols designed to prevent rapid organ cannibalization and hypoglycemic coma.

Surviving an emergency response does not mean you are optimizing performance; it means your body is successfully executing its survival programming.

From the text of the papers:

• The present data do not elucidate the mechanisms responsible for the altered GH secretion during fasting, but such alterations may play an important role in substrate homeostasis during starvation.
• To test the hypothesis that starvation enhances the frequency and/or amplitude of specific GH secretory bursts, we monitored LH, TSH, and GH... during a 2-day control (fed) period and during a 2-day fast (starvation).

The authors of the very papers you are quoting explicitly contradict your argument. They repeatedly define a 48-to-120-hour fast as 'starvation.'
Furthermore, they state that the massive HGH spike is an emergency mechanism designed to preserve vital proteins during 'nutritional deprivation' while documenting a concurrent, significant drop in Somatomedin C (IGF-1).
You are misinterpreting a published, peer-reviewed paper on starvation survival mechanisms and trying to pass it off as a performance protocol.

 

[hawkmoon]

Your phrasing makes it seem like your next post will ask if he has a minute to talk about our lord Jesus Christ or perhaps the book of mormon

There is a reason the tone is similar

 

[pesty4077]

You don't suffer though, mental energy, clarity and 0 appetite equivalent to being on a good dose of Adderall or caffeine + nicotine. Any time works gets crazy or I have other high stress in life, need to be very productive I fast. It is like being on strong stimulants.

Your statements are contradicting in itself. Back on this thread you tell people to stay clear of sugar, because it is the number 1 addiction, which is totally false. Nicotine is the number 1 addiction with over 1 billion users.

Now you are telling people in order to do fasting for 4 days, to take in a substance that is highly addicting. Yet, you are claiming that this is a healthy thing to do.

 

[goal245]

A 72-to-96-hour fast is structurally Phase 3 (Protein-Sparing/Ketotic) starvation. The only reason the body spikes HGH, shuts down peripheral insulin sensitivity, drops T3, and switches the brain to ketone metabolism during that exact window is because liver glycogen is completely exhausted. These are evolutionary triage protocols designed to prevent rapid organ cannibalization and hypoglycemic coma.

I've been in ketosis for 2+ years now, this is my average sugar / ketone levels. Am I starving?